Electric cars

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

The difference, of course, is that the Nissan-Renault-Mitsubishi alliance aren't just knocking the Zoe out.
Nissan have the Leaf and e-NV200 van.
Renault have the Twizy, Zoe, Kangoo ZE and Master ZE vans, and had the Fluence ZE.
Mitsu have the i-MIEV and Outlander PHEV.

...and that's all on top of the bread-and-butter catalogue of non-EVs... They simply aren't betting the house on one or two models.

Oh, and if we're looking at the chronology and suggesting Renault knocked the Zoe out as some kind of "nominal response" to the Model S, let's not forget a concept was first shown in 2005, the Kangoo ZE was first shown in 2008, and both Kangoo and Fluence ZE were in production in 2011, with the Fluence having BetterPlace compatible battery-swap.

Even then, an electric version of a small car or van was not exactly a novel concept for the French manufacturers - PSA had been selling electric C15s and Berlingos since 1990, together with electric AXs, Saxos and 106s from the 80s. If the Zoe was anything, it was a very belated response to those, albeit one that hit the market when it (and battery technology) was finally starting to become ready for the idea. Gawd alone knows why PSA threw that lead away so badly...

So, in short, Tesla is going great guns, whilst the rest are barely treading water. Yep, very true.

gfplux

Talking sightings of Tesla in Luxembourg.
These you don’t want to see in your rear view mirror!

QUOTE
LUXEMBOURG (Reuters) - Police in Luxembourg have added two Tesla electric cars to their fleet, hoping that their rapid acceleration capacity will help them nab more criminals and speed offenders while also trimming the tiny country’s carbon emissions.

The purchase of the two Tesla Model S cars - which can accelerate from 0 to 60 miles per hour (97 kmph) in seconds - is part of a pilot project to move some 10 percent of the cars on Luxembourg’s roads towards electric and hybrid vehicles, the Grand Duchy’s transport minister said.
END QUOTE

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-luxembourg-tesla/luxembourg-police-deploy-tesla-cars-to-help-nab-criminals-idUSKBN1KA1I0

VIDEO HERE
https://uk.reuters.com/video/2018/07/20/tesla-police-cars-start-to-patrol-in-lux?videoId=447195600

Although they did have some bad publicity!
https://today.rtl.lu/news/luxembourg/a/1324015.html

QUOTE
A police vehicle broke down on the A1 to Trier on Friday afternoon. The drivers on the other side promptly caused traffic through their curiosity...
END QUOTE

zeupater

AdrianC wrote: »

The difference, of course, is that the Nissan-Renault-Mitsubishi alliance aren't just knocking the Zoe out.
Nissan have the Leaf and e-NV200 van.
Renault have the Twizy, Zoe, Kangoo ZE and Master ZE vans, and had the Fluence ZE.
Mitsu have the i-MIEV and Outlander PHEV.

...and that's all on top of the bread-and-butter catalogue of non-EVs... They simply aren't betting the house on one or two models.

Oh, and if we're looking at the chronology and suggesting Renault knocked the Zoe out as some kind of "nominal response" to the Model S, let's not forget a concept was first shown in 2005, the Kangoo ZE was first shown in 2008, and both Kangoo and Fluence ZE were in production in 2011, with the Fluence having BetterPlace compatible battery-swap.

Even then, an electric version of a small car or van was not exactly a novel concept for the French manufacturers - PSA had been selling electric C15s and Berlingos since 1990, together with electric AXs, Saxos and 106s from the 80s. If the Zoe was anything, it was a very belated response to those, albeit one that hit the market when it (and battery technology) was finally starting to become ready for the idea. Gawd alone knows why PSA threw that lead away so badly...

Hi


So, let's have a look at cumulative European sales for those models ...

Leaf - 136k
eNV200 - (Commercial) ~20k to May 2019
Twizy - 18k
Zoe - 146k
Kangoo ZE - (Commercial) 42k
Master ZE - (Large Commercial Carrier- low hundreds: discounted)
Fluence ZE - 2k (Production Turkey & S.Korea)

iMiEV - 8k (production Japan & Thailand)
Outlander PHEV ('H' discounted!)

So the models raised accounted for around 372k EVs of all shapes & sizes sold in Europe from the vehicle listed, with ~362k being home market sales over a period spanning more than a decade .... the point being that if the group has been 'knocking' out all of these models, it's been (relatively) at close to a snails pace compared to their mainstream ICEs and just one of Tesla's models, the 3, which has sold around half of that total figure in Tesla's home market in a little over 12 months ... on a home market basis, that's one model in one year compared to all of the models and manufacturers mentioned over an entire decade .... that certainly should make someone wake up, ditch the complacency & start to pull their socks up: the alternative being a road to severe corporate contraction ...

HTH
Z

almillar

So how does this and the fact that an overseas competitor model has outsold it in it's home market over the first 5 months of a year become relevant?

I don't accept that the Model 3 is in competition with the Zoe, any more than a BMW 3 series is with a Ford Fiesta.
I repeat, you're claiming that Tesla are doing electric cars better than Renault - I agree. If you think Renault are doing badly at EV, relatively, I disagree. They're in the top handful of 'legacy' manufacturers in this regard.

now that's 8 years of a potential to develop a global lead squandered

Disagree. Zoe launched at 22kWh, got upgraded to 40kWh, and this year Zoe 2 (year 9?) will launch with 50kWh. Doubled in range - squandered?
If you stop comparing them to Tesla, and instead to the other manufacturers, you would see them in a better light.

what is the price difference between the latest Zoe ZE50 with a decent spec & owned battery

Hasn't been announced. I've only seen speculation. Mine was in 2015 with a ~£20k list price after £5k grant. As has been said on here before though, the manufacturers of bigger cars that it does compete with, should be worried. They've been undercut with some serious tech! Zoe is certainly being squeezed from above, and if this new one does turn out to be £30k (disclaimer - list price isn't buy price, once the novelty wears off!), then it's too expensive. We've been told EVs are getting cheaper!

And on a point of order, I think this 'home market' comparison stuff is a bit unfair. Tesla's home market is bigger than Renault's, for example, and BYD's is bigger again. So selling more models in a bigger market is more of a given.

Anyway, I've been trying to stay out of the Tesla stuff, and not doing a good job. They're not a traditional car manufacturer, so they're not bogged down by the same baggage as the others (there are pros and cons for them of course).

zeupater

almillar wrote: »

I don't accept that the Model 3 is in competition with the Zoe, any more than a BMW 3 series is with a Ford Fiesta.
I repeat, you're claiming that Tesla are doing electric cars better than Renault - I agree. If you think Renault are doing badly at EV, relatively, I disagree. They're in the top handful of 'legacy' manufacturers in this regard.



Disagree. Zoe launched at 22kWh, got upgraded to 40kWh, and this year Zoe 2 (year 9?) will launch with 50kWh. Doubled in range - squandered?
If you stop comparing them to Tesla, and instead to the other manufacturers, you would see them in a better light.

Hasn't been announced. I've only seen speculation. Mine was in 2015 with a ~£20k list price after £5k grant. As has been said on here before though, the manufacturers of bigger cars that it does compete with, should be worried. They've been undercut with some serious tech! Zoe is certainly being squeezed from above, and if this new one does turn out to be £30k (disclaimer - list price isn't buy price, once the novelty wears off!), then it's too expensive. We've been told EVs are getting cheaper!

And on a point of order, I think this 'home market' comparison stuff is a bit unfair. Tesla's home market is bigger than Renault's, for example, and BYD's is bigger again. So selling more models in a bigger market is more of a given.

Anyway, I've been trying to stay out of the Tesla stuff, and not doing a good job. They're not a traditional car manufacturer, so they're not bogged down by the same baggage as the others (there are pros and cons for them of course).

Hi

Regarding Competition .... of course a vehicle that is competing in the EV sector is in competition with all vehicles in that sector that the customer is both willing to consider & can afford .... once you leave the pricing band of the small car sector, model & brand desirability becomes a major factor in the purchasing decision and when you're talking about a comparison in the ~£30-£40k band, that's the area where badges, prestige, luxury & performance stats become quite important when browsing brochures or touring showrooms ....

Regarding " Renault are doing badly at EV", well apart from entering the sector relatively early & maintaining little more than a nominal presence they haven't exactly been excelling on the expansion front if they've only sold a cumulative 146k Zoes: now if the ZE50 has had facility investment to achieve european sales of >146k/year from now on that would be a start, but has it?, or are Renault content to tootle along in the same old complacent way? - that's what they're squandering - by now they should have ample experience in EV manufacture and be able to apply that experience to processes & procedures in a way which could give them serious advantage over new entrants to the sector and use this as a springboard to increased volumes. Simply moving from 22kWh to 40kWh and now 50kWh and not seeing this as an opportunity to sell vehicles to a wider customer base likely signals to the customer & the market that they are content to parallel their manufacturing peers as opposed to being a company with serious ambitions ...

Regarding Price ... German ZE50 announcement a few days ago ... renault-zoe-ze-50-prices-germany ... suggest that £30k to £35k on the road pricing before incentives & including purchased batteries is in the right ball park .... on the point of EVs getting cheaper, well that's down to the manufacturers and their ambitions related to leveraging technological advantage & volume related economies of scale ...

On "Tesla's home market is bigger than Renault's" etc ... is that correct? ... On vehicle sales the comparison is - USA ~17million vs EU/EFTA at ~16million for 2018 suggesting that it's pretty even. For direct comparison on sales, how else would the comparison be done? ... it'd probably be considered unfair to compare global totals for the Zoe considering the markets it's available in .... Model 3 sales in Europe vs Zoe in the USA makes little sense ... comparing the top selling EV model in USA vs that in the EU would currently (2019) pit the TM3 against itself, so home market is merely a logical comparative measure!

So why is Tesla not a "traditional car manufacturer, so they're not bogged down by the same baggage as the others"? ... like all other manufacturers, they buy materials & components, process them in a plant using machinery & labour, distribute finished goods to customers & process all sales & purchases using standard ACR & ACP methodology before producing period & year end financial & management accounts .... the advantages that the legacy manufacturers held regarding experience, assets & access to finance once gave them the ability to react quickly, however, the only 'baggage' that prevented them from doing so was (& still is!) a mindset of complacency, a general resistance to change outside the normal technical envelope that they operate in ....

On BYD in the China market ... If you stand back & think about it, there's a reason the Chinese government have allowed Tesla to become the first overseas manufacturer to build, own & operate a facility in China, it's their goal to have 25% of new vehicle registrations as EVs in 2025 ... yes, that's around 7-8million EVs per year in just over 5 years, a level of production ramp-up that is pretty scary for any manufacturer without considerable experience in EV market expansion at anything other than a snail's pace ... Tesla haven't been allowed into China for someone to rip off their considerable selection of patents as most are already open source and the level of funding & accelerated support offered directly to Tesla tends to convey how serious meeting the 25% target should be taken, that's why I would expect production at Gigafactory3 to be scaled up far beyond the 200-250kpa units to nearer a full capacity of around 750k to 1million(?) sooner than expected, probably needing at least one one more plant of equivalent capacity some time before 2025, and all of this excluding exports from China!

... this is what missing the boat through complacency looks like ..... remember Ferguson, GEC, ICI and the once third largest automotive group in the world (<50 years ago!), as well as many others ? ...

It's not being the strongest, biggest or cleverest company that makes any difference, they're all exposed when change is unavoidable .... taking a well known Darwinian quote regarding evolution that is often used in change management conditions, the one that "survives is the one that is able to adapt to and to adjust best to the changing environment in which it finds itself", which normally dictates a proactive approach and definitely not market position complacency ...

HTH
Z

DoaM

doam wrote: »

what does picg stand for?

? ?

zeupater

DoaM wrote: »

? ?

Hi

It's Plug-In-Car-Grant ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/reformed-plug-in-car-grant-extended-into-next-decade

HTH
Z

gfplux

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

It's Plug-In-Car-Grant ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/reformed-plug-in-car-grant-extended-into-next-decade

HTH
Z

I wish there were less use of abbreviations and acronyms as it creates a fog that those of us who don’t use them find unhelpful.
Surely those who know so much should be trying to make this subject clearer to the outsider so they find it easy to navigate this new world.

Who uses PE for petrol engine or DE for Diesel engine.

Martyn1981

gfplux wrote: »

I wish there were less use of abbreviations and acronyms as it creates a fog that those of us who don’t use them find unhelpful.
Surely those who know so much should be trying to make this subject clearer to the outsider so they find it easy to navigate this new world.

Who uses PE for petrol engine or DE for Diesel engine.

If in doubt GIYF!

Personally I try to add the full wording in brackets after, but only for a few posts on the same thread. But I appreciate that's a bit of a pig on a very long thread.

Martyn1981

Range anxiety?

A decent sized batt, plus good efficiency (miles/kWh), plus fast charging ability seems to suggest that range anxiety will fade going forwards as all manufacturers deliver ever better BEV's.

Tesla Model 3 Breaks World EV Distance Record — 2,781 km (1,728 miles) Travelled In 24 Hours