Electric cars

DrEskimo

Car_54 wrote: »

You're probably right, but there is no logical reason for the shortfall in VED to be clawed back exclusively from vehicle users.


The switch away from fossil fuels will (allegedly) benefit all of society, so there is a good case for recovering the shortfall through universal taxation, i.e. increased income tax and/or VAT.


This would also be very simple to administer, and would avoid the costs of implementing road pricing.

Indeed...the potential to reduce air pollution and flatten out grid demands should go some way to offsetting the loss in fuel duty.

I don't really understand how they can feasibly replace fuel tax through EV's though...last statistics I heard was that only 18% of all EV miles were powered through public chargers. I admit, we have a bias sample of EV owners, as those that can charge at home are more likely to be owning one now, but if they just increase the amount to charge publicly, people will just avoid them. For example I intend to buy one and have no way of charging at home (victorian terrace). So I was just going to install a charger at my parents, who I visit every Sunday. Even a 40kWh will give sufficient range for me to only have to charge once a week.

The only option would therefore be to increase home electricity costs, but then that is at odds with people who are not EV owners, those that are incentivised to charge at night off-peak, and will just make solar even more attractive...!

AdrianC wrote: »

A substantial proportion of CO2 - closing on half that of transport - comes from the construction industry, which receives VAT reductions.

According to the latest Government figures, a substantial proportion is from cars and taxi's. Some 58% of all GHG from total transport.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661933/tsgb-2017-report-summaries.pdf

Herzlos

There's no need for it to be anything other than a flat VED like we've had for decades, at a higher rate than currently because there's a lot of fuelling that won't be taxable. So I could see something like £300/year VED and/or an increase in VAT on electricity (5% to 7-10%).


Potentially, houses could get fast chargers installed which have their own meter and a higher rate, so you'd pay the increased VAT on fast charging, whilst granny charging would be at the standard 5%. How many people would forgo a fast charger for a 2kw slow charger over a few pence/kwh?

AdrianC

DrEskimo wrote: »

According to the latest Government figures, a substantial proportion is from cars and taxi's. Some 58% of all GHG from total transport.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661933/tsgb-2017-report-summaries.pdf

Yes, 58% of all domestic transport.


Total transport, domestic and international, is 24% of the total emissions - piechart, top of p6.


58% of all domestic transport greenhouse was from cars and taxis. So that's 58% of 93% of 24% = 12.9% of the total emissions.

The graph at the top of p7 shows how various pollutants have fallen dramatically since 1990 due to improvements in combustion technology and post-combustion treatment.


As for the alternatives - road pricing...

ElefantEd

The point is that at the moment EV cars are cheaper - at least by a factor of two, and, from my experience of 100,000+ miles, rather more than that.


Yes, as the take from fuel duty decreases, the government will no doubt need to increase tax revenue. But they don't have to do that by charging for using roads, there are plenty of other options. Even 12% or 25% of CO2 emissions are worth eliminating. Not to mention that air quality is most severely impacted by cars, if this is vastly improved by the introduction of EVs in place of ICEs, that will have a large benefit to people's health and the NHS.


As for nothing else being taxed as heavily as fuel, wrong again I fear. Spirits are taxed at £28.74 per litre of pure alcohol, thats £12 for 40 proof. Rather more than petrol!

DrEskimo

AdrianC wrote: »

Yes, 58% of all domestic transport.


Total transport, domestic and international, is 24% of the total emissions - piechart, top of p6.


58% of all domestic transport greenhouse was from cars and taxis. So that's 58% of 93% of 24% = 12.9% of the total emissions.

The graph at the top of p7 shows how various pollutants have fallen dramatically since 1990 due to improvements in combustion technology and post-combustion treatment.


As for the alternatives - road pricing...

Not quite, 93% and the 58% are proportions of the same totals and both include the figures from cars and taxis. The denominators are the same. It's easier if you just look at the raw numbers from the excel.

495.7 tonnes is the total CO2 from UK.
120 tonnes is the total from all transport, or 24%.
111.5 tonnes is all road transport, which is 95% of the 120 tonnes from all transport, or 22.4% of the total GHG emissions.
8.5 tonnes is from aviation and shipping and rail, which is 7% of the 120 tonnes from all transport, or 1.7% of all GHG emissions.

Private cars and taxis are 69.1 tonnes, which is 14% of all GHG, not 12%. You don't need to divide it by 93% before hand. This is just a figure to show how much of the 24% is made up of road traffic, which includes cars and taxis. This is 58% of the 120 tonnes from all transport.

So how can construction make up almost half of all transport GHG emissions? The combination of HGV, light vans and other is 38.1, which is only 32% of the total transport emissions (or 8% of the total GHG emissions).

AdrianC

DrEskimo wrote: »

Not quite, 93% and the 58% are proportions of the same totals and both include the figures from cars and taxis.

Fine. Then they've labelled the infographic wrongly, where it says "58% of all domestic transport..."

It's a relatively minor difference - 12.9% or 13.9% of the total greenhouse emissions.

So how can construction make up almost half of all transport GHG emissions?

I didn't say "make up". I said "closing on". I was comparing the two different sources, not suggesting the transport figure included the construction figure - construction is widely quoted as c.10% of total, which is almost half of 24%. Concrete is a CO2 horror show.

almillar

I had considered buying a Zoe.
What made your electric car experience so awful ?

BeenThroughItAll had big reliability problems with his Zoe, and poor service from Renault and their dealerships, IIRC.

So you put 100+kWh in, but somebody else paid for it?
Who? How sustainable IS that model, once EV traffic volumes rise?

If you're with Ecotricity for your home electric (not an option for me in NI), you get some 'free' charging, in exchange for paying a bit more for your green electricity. And I think it is sustainable for supermarkets etc to stick a few slow chargers in their car parks and provide electric for free. Installing and running a £50k odd rapid - maybe not. Lidl are giving it a go though.

DrEskimo

AdrianC wrote: »

Fine. Then they've labelled the infographic wrongly, where it says "58% of all domestic transport..."

I thought it was pretty clear, but fair enough...

AdrianC wrote: »

I didn't say "make up". I said "closing on". I was comparing the two different sources, not suggesting the transport figure included the construction figure - construction is widely quoted as c.10% of total, which is almost half of 24%. Concrete is a CO2 horror show.

Transport involved in construction, or construction as a whole...? Again how are you defining construction? I don't think it's fair to assume that every HGV, LGV and van counts as 'construction', so how is it closing in on half of all transport CO2 emissions?

AdrianC

You have the wrong end of the stick.
Construction and transport are two different sources.
Construction is not part of transport.

10% construction + 24% transport = 34% of total
NOT
10% construction + 14% (non-construction) transport = 24% of total.

Stageshoot

Instavolt are currently on free introductory offer and have been since Nov17. So yes the. Barge cost was £0