Electric cars

Martyn1981

buglawton wrote: »

The pollution is displaced from the roadside to the power station, until and if renewable power generation can keep up with the expanded real world demand of a shift to EVs. All that imported oil calorific value will need replacing with something else... It's a bit premature to imagine EVs are clean energy.

That's highly misleading. The ICE is running at about 25% efficiency (plus all the energy in producing and distributing the petrol/diesel) and distributing the emissions 'willy nilly'.

Gas generation is about 50% efficient and far cleaner, so far, far cleaner already, and then there's the fact that only 50% of our generation now comes from FF's.

Build outs of RE are not a problem, we've gone from about 4% to about 30% in a decade, and there are no issues of scaleability, whilst costs are still falling. With the introduction of storage when RE levels grow 'too' high, we will see a further reduction of FF use for generation, and all at a roll out speed far faster than that of additional EV demand.

Herzlos

EV's don't produce emissions though, and it's entirely possible to only charge them at home from a 100% renewable energy provider, so I'm not sure how else they can describe them that isn't convoluted. The emissions figures are specifically from the vehicle itself (ICE cars don't account for the emissions involved in getting the oil out of the ground, processed and into the vehicle, so why should EV's account for the emissions involved in getting the electricity into the vehicle?)


Plus as power generation becomes cleaner (better filtering, more renewables) the pollution reduces without the driver having to do anything. Just because it's not 100% 'clean' right now doesn't mean it's not a whole lot better than ICE.


Not that many people actually care about the emissions; the big driving force for EV usage is the running costs.

Martyn1981

Herzlos wrote: »

Plus as power generation becomes cleaner (better filtering, more renewables) the pollution reduces without the driver having to do anything. Just because it's not 100% 'clean' right now doesn't mean it's not a whole lot better than ICE.

A point I once read is that ICE's get less efficient as they get older, so their emissions increase across their lifetimes, whilst EV's actually get cleaner over their lifetime as we steadily reduce the pollutants and GHG emissions from the grid due to the switch to more RE.

Stageshoot

buglawton wrote: »

Exactly like petrol stations then, where margins are wafer thin despite serious capital investment that includes underground fuel storage.

Well, wafer thin except when located at monopoly motorway service stations when the markup can reach maybe 30%. But not 300%...

And the average Petrol station has maybe 10 pumps with a throughput of probably 10 vehicles and hour each 100 Vehicles an hour with an average of 30 Litres per vehicle.. 5p a litre markup.
100users X30 litre fill x5p litre profit = £150 an hour profit + ancillary sales from the shop etc

Rapid Charger, 1 or 2 per site, average users per hour 0.2 (Figures show 6 charges a day on average at the moment for a busy unit) Average pull 20kwh, lets be generous and say they are making 20p a kwh

0.2 Users x 20kwh fill x20p kwh profit = 80p an hour profit with no ancillary sales,

Yes usage will incease as EV sales increase but with up to 90% of charging done at home its never going to be a mass market proposition its always going to be a niche add on to another location

NigeWick

AdrianC wrote: »

What's more likely in the short-to-medium term is something akin to insurance black boxes.

Could well be. No doubt HMGov Plc will go for the cheapest option where they can make the most money.

NigeWick

buglawton wrote: »

Interesting that Instavolt charge £0.35/kWh, 3 times the average UK domestic rate. Quite a mark up, eh? That'd make me reconsider the economics of EV but not in a good way.

35p for 5 miles in the more economical BEVs, How does that compare with petrol or diesel? Plus, one can get it cheaper at Ecotricity and Polar chargers, especially if an Ecotricity or Polar customer. Not forgetting that more stores are now offering free charging for their customers.

NigeWick

buglawton wrote: »

The pollution is displaced from the roadside to the power station, until and if renewable power generation can keep up with the expanded real world demand of a shift to EVs. All that imported oil calorific value will need replacing with something else... It's a bit premature to imagine EVs are clean energy.

What utter balderdash. Even with the dirtiest electricity, BEVs are cleaner than fossil burners. Plus many of the BEV owners have solar panels that supply their vehicles as well as homes. Then there are those who choose to buy from renewable only suppliers like Ecotricity & Ovo.

AdrianC

NigeWick wrote: »

Then there are those who choose to buy from renewable only suppliers like Ecotricity & Ovo.

Do people really still fall for that?

Who you buy your electricity from makes zero difference to the source of the electricity entering your home, and it makes zero difference to the balance of sources of electricity entering the grid. It only affects who sends you your bill, and how big that bill is.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

Do people really still fall for that?

Who you buy your electricity from makes zero difference to the source of the electricity entering your home, and it makes zero difference to the balance of sources of electricity entering the grid. It only affects who sends you your bill, and how big that bill is.

You can't chose which electrons come down the grid, sure, but if you're paying a supplier that only supplies renewables into the grid then you've at least got control over which electrons in the system you're paying for. By paying the bill to a renewable company you're pushing the investment towards renewable.



Or are you trying to imply that the renewable-only suppliers are actually supplying fossil fuel power as well?

Herzlos

Stageshoot wrote: »

0.2 Users x 20kwh fill x20p kwh profit = 80p an hour profit with no ancillary sales,

Why do you think they'd drop down to 2 per site with no ancillary sales?
I've seen service stations with 6+ already, so there's no reason a 10 pump forecourt couldn't support 10x 30-min fast chargers, giving you 20 customers an hour (if they all charge to the 80%, some may only charge enough to get home and be away in 5 minutes).


Then with customers on site for 30 minutes instead of 3 you'd have loads more ancillary options; cafe/snacks, shopping, pinball machine.



It'd probably not look like a conventional petrol station though, there's no reason it couldn't just be a single parking space with a charger and a self-serve kiosk.