Electric cars

Herzlos

There's lots of parking spaces that can't be turned into anything else, though I'm sure a lot of people would rather have a little garden space than some tarmac/gravel.
Potentially they can use it for storages and build elsewhere. In my case the driveway is down the side of the house, so if I didn't need space for cars I could stick a 2-story extension on and add 1/3rd of the size to my house.

Plus, not everyone has land, so whilst person A might be able to an on-demand service, their neighbour (with no parking space) might need a dedicated car, in which case that space is worth a few quid rent (potentially enough to pay for the on-demand).

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

Which is all absolutely spiffing, unless you live north of say, Leeds, in which case you're pretty stuffed unless you want to spend half of your time travelling to chargers via a circuitous route.

There are slower charging points all over the place.

And of course that you want to stop every couple of hours for half an hour at a time.

Currently you need to stop for about half an hour every 2-3 hours (say, 150 miles). The next generation (on the near horizon) is looking at a 20 minute charge to go 300 miles. That's a 20 minute pee/coffee break every 4.5 hours (if you can do 70mph the whole time). My last petrol car couldn't go 300 miles on a single tank, and it's not far off what I get in my current diesel (~350ish miles).

The reality is that unless you're doing mega mileages, access to charges isn't really an issue unless it's a bank holiday weekend and everyone else is trying to use the same 6 chargers.

almillar

So if we all go to electric cars where are we all going to charge them?

At home, the workplace, and at public chargers. Hopefully mostly whilst we're doing something else. I suppose you wouldn't have seen petrol taking off all those years ago, with the lack of petrol stations? Well, it happened. And chargers are easier to build than petrol stations.

People in flats can own petrol cars because it takes less than five minutes to fill them up, making it a convenience that they can afford to undertake miles from home

Or charge at Lidl whilst doing your weekly shop. You also don't have to stand beside your car holding a pump.

Putting petrol into a car is an event in itself. Electric charging doesn't have to be like that - parking your car and plugging it in, whist at the shops, cinema, having a coffee is the way to do it. Once businesses learn that the piddling amount they need to spend on just an AC charger will be more than paid back in custom (and even coffee on more expensive rapid chargers!) they will pop up everywhere. McDonalds have had more business from me since I got one :-(

Need to get rid of the stupid battery leases that are muddying the waters with cars like the Zoe, look so cheap second hand then you get the battery lease on top

Yup. A mere 2 years ago people were banging on about not wanting to own a battery - lease it instead and if/when it doesn't hold an acceptable charge, Manufacturer replaces it and you keep driving. Now people want to own them as this drop off is barely happening, Leaf excepted.

Never mind about where the cars are going to have their batteries charged, I'm wondering what they're going to have their batteries charged with.

Don't worry about it, it's not your problem. Have you ever worried what would happen if everyone wanted petrol, all at the same time? The queues at the pumps would be incredible!
Solar power is great during the day, power plants are installing battery storing to draw on instead of generators, sub-stations can have them installed for local demand, and you can install batteries in your home for really local stuff. And in the future we'll have a smarter grid, including those very cars you're worried about, able to take less from the grid on request, or probably even give power back, or power the home.
The grid needs plenty of maintenance as it is to deal with the peaks in power demand - having lots of 'smart charging' cars connected, could help smooth demand out. Not 'more' infrastructure, just 'smarter' and maybe more local.

And of course that you want to stop every couple of hours for half an hour at a time.

That's just good driving, no matter what your fuel.

BeenThroughItAll

Herzlos wrote: »

There's lots of parking spaces that can't be turned into anything else, though I'm sure a lot of people would rather have a little garden space than some tarmac/gravel.
Potentially they can use it for storages and build elsewhere. In my case the driveway is down the side of the house, so if I didn't need space for cars I could stick a 2-story extension on and add 1/3rd of the size to my house.

Plus, not everyone has land, so whilst person A might be able to an on-demand service, their neighbour (with no parking space) might need a dedicated car, in which case that space is worth a few quid rent (potentially enough to pay for the on-demand).



There are slower charging points all over the place.

Currently you need to stop for about half an hour every 2-3 hours (say, 150 miles). The next generation (on the near horizon) is looking at a 20 minute charge to go 300 miles. That's a 20 minute pee/coffee break every 4.5 hours (if you can do 70mph the whole time). My last petrol car couldn't go 300 miles on a single tank, and it's not far off what I get in my current diesel (~350ish miles).

The reality is that unless you're doing mega mileages, access to charges isn't really an issue unless it's a bank holiday weekend and everyone else is trying to use the same 6 chargers.

Slower charging points aren't much help if you have to stop for three hours at 7kW to travel another 100mi.

I don't want to stop for half an hour every two hours. I'm quite happy to stop when I'm tired, which is often four hours or more. If I don't get tired within tank range of 500mi, or need a wee, then I won't stop.

The point I'm making is that it's all very well everyone saying how wonderful EVs are (and yes, I have actually owned one) but they are simply not a replacement for a FF vehicle for many people's purposes, and won't be until charging times and ranges are comparable to a FF vehicle - which might be never.

rtho782

I love how every ICE driver is an expert on EVs.

I drive a 30kW Leaf. My other half has a Diesel.

The reality is that very few of our journeys are outside the range of the Leaf though, we tend to use the Leaf wherever we can as it's much cheaper to run (obviously) at about £2.50 per full charge.

I plug in at home every night, although I CAN get through a full week of work commute (just) without charging if I drive like a snail.

We go to Lakeside shopping once a month or so, which is about a 160 mile round trip, and charge on the rapid charger at Ikea, getting refunded this with a purchase there. In total this trip ends up costing us about £2 in electricity rather than £16.76 in fuel (her 208 gets about 52mpg, fuel is about £1.20 a litre).

The only times we NEED to take the ICE are when we go to visit her parents, which is about 500 miles each way. It's possible to do this trip stopping at rapid chargers, but I wouldn't really want to. However, we are looking at switching her to an EV too, and we'll just rent a car for the 4 trips a year we go there - it will still work out cheaper.

Herzlos

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

Slower charging points aren't much help if you have to stop for three hours at 7kW to travel another 100mi.

Indeed, but how often are you going to have to do that? Most people can get to work and back on a single charge and plug it in overnight. Most long distance drives are along motorways with fast charging points.

The point I'm making is that it's all very well everyone saying how wonderful EVs are (and yes, I have actually owned one) but they are simply not a replacement for a FF vehicle for many people's purposes, and won't be until charging times and ranges are comparable to a FF vehicle - which might be never.

I'd say that aren't suitable for some peoples car usage, but they should satisfy most peoples usage most of the time, at a vastly reduced fuel cost. As pointed out, there's nothing stopping people hiring an ICE car for a couple of weekends a year when driving off into the Highlands, but most journeys most people make are perfectly fine with ICE.

Obvious, they are terrible for taxi drivers, sales reps, couriers and haulage (at this stage), but for almost everyone else they should be fine.

How many journeys do you make that are more than 100 miles round trip? 200 miles round trip? 300 miles?

I don't think I do more than a 100 mile round trip without stopping for a while anyway. In fact I've just convinced myself I don't need a PHEV, I can get by happily with just electric.

BeenThroughItAll

Herzlos wrote: »

Indeed, but how often are you going to have to do that? Most people can get to work and back on a single charge and plug it in overnight. Most long distance drives are along motorways with fast charging points.

Indeed - but 'fast' chargers at service stations still require a 20-30min stop - I don't want to do that every 350mi, let alone every 80-100 mi as one has to in the majority of EVs.

I'd say that aren't suitable for some peoples car usage, but they should satisfy most peoples usage most of the time, at a vastly reduced fuel cost. As pointed out, there's nothing stopping people hiring an ICE car for a couple of weekends a year when driving off into the Highlands, but most journeys most people make are perfectly fine with ICE.

Obvious, they are terrible for taxi drivers, sales reps, couriers and haulage (at this stage), but for almost everyone else they should be fine.

How many journeys do you make that are more than 100 miles round trip? 200 miles round trip? 300 miles?

I don't think I do more than a 100 mile round trip without stopping for a while anyway. In fact I've just convinced myself I don't need a PHEV, I can get by happily with just electric.

I do quite a lot of >100mi trips. Today, I've driven 350mi to Birmingham and Wednesday, I'll be doing a 250mi drive to London, with a 400mi trip from London to Glasgow on Thursday, then Glasgow back to Durham on Friday morning.

For that use, an EV doesn't work, and even a Tesla would test my patience as I'd have to stop too often, and for too long to make it work. As I said, I've owned an EV, bought for commuting and running about and apart from it being terribly unreliable (and going back after 12 months as a result), it was fine. The point I'm making is that regardless of range, charging times and infrastructure are still far too long, and too thin on the ground to make EVs the answer for many drivers. Fine if you want to stop every hour or two and waste half an hour or more in the services, but that's £100 worth of chargeable time I'm losing out on in which I could be delivering work to a customer and earning revenue.

vman

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

Indeed - but 'fast' chargers at service stations still require a 20-30min stop - I don't want to do that every 350mi, let alone every 80-100 mi as one has to in the majority of EVs.

Oh come on, even at an unrealistic average of 70 mph, 350 miles is 5 hours of non stop driving, realistically more like 6 hours. Are you really saying you wouldn't take a 20 minute break on route? That's just dangerous. You're supposed to take 15 minutes every three hours with ties up the 350 range (and the same as most diesels I've owned).

vman

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

The problem is still charge rate though. People in flats can own petrol cars because it takes less than five minutes to fill them up, making it a convenience that they can afford to undertake miles from home. A 300mi range EV needs much more planning.

People in flats with cars still go shopping once or twice a week, you just plug it in while you are shopping - no 5 minute dead time like with petrol. That sounds more convenient to me.

If people like Tesco's see an opportunity to monetise their car parks I cant really see them turning this down, they're always looking for new revenue. The opportunity to charge punters an extra 5 or 6 quid that can be collected at the till?

almillar

I don't want to stop for half an hour every two hours. I'm quite happy to stop when I'm tired, which is often four hours or more. If I don't get tired within tank range of 500mi, or need a wee, then I won't stop.

You are, literally, an exceptional driver. You've seen the standard of driving reported in this forum, some people don't seem to be able to concentrate on a 5 minute drive. If you were driving a lorry, your pattern would be illegal. Would you complain about a petrol/diesel with only a 300 mile range?

but they are simply not a replacement for a FF vehicle for many people's purposes

I get your point, but it's not 'many people', IMO, it's 'some' at the moment, and going down every year with new models. New Zoe has a proper 120 mile+ range, and that suits the vast majority of journeys. I think it's very difficult, if you have 2 cars, to justify the second one NOT being electric, all other things being even, for example. If you've one car, and you do long journeys a lot, then fair enough.

a 20-30min stop - I don't want to do that every 350mi, let alone every 80-100 mi as one has to in the majority of EVs.

Absolutely true. But I think most people don't mind, and indeed, I think it's good practice to have breaks when driving.

oldagetraveller

Some entertainment for the EV fans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6GeHnMwl1c