Electric cars

buglawton

I stand corrected, I should have said 'the trolls bait'.

Martyn1981

Gloomendoom wrote: »

Interesting definition of troll bait on urban dictionary...

Still trying to drag us all down to your level I see. You do realise that 'the quote' is a negative to be avoided, not an aspiration by which to live your on-line life.

If you believe that EV's have more parts, have more moving parts, and suffer more wear and tear / maintenance, then provide some evidence, if not ...... then what's your actual point?

Martyn1981

buglawton wrote: »

Coincidentally, in this mornings news:
James Dyson to invest £2.5bn on 'radically different' electric car
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/26/james-dyson-electric-car-2020

Hiya, apologies for pedantry but I think there might be some confusion over the link, I'm seeing last years article. This is the article from yesterday

Dyson to expand Wiltshire facility to boost electric-car tests

almillar

I don't recall saying that manufactures are making big, or any profits on EV. Can you direct me to where I 'made something up'?

I don't recall you saying that either, but you said (and I quoted):

I'll simply repeat, EV has a small fraction of drivetrain parts. And as I already said, battery is a well known cost element hence the battery leasing deals. Logically the manufacturing costs should be as low/lower than ICE. Are EV manufacturers factoring into the price the lost revenue from all the consumables and servicing that won't exist?

And I tried to counter this by saying that a lot of manufacturers seem to be making losses on EVs - point being MAKING AND DELIVERING an EV is expensive. You're saying that they are simpler in construction, with fewer parts in the drive train - true. But you completely ignore the COST OF COMPONENTS when saying EVs should be cheaper. A gold ring could be worth more than a car, which one has fewer components?

I have no idea how an EV loses money for it's manufacturer.

Yes, you've made that clear, and I'm trying to explain. Short version: batteries are expensive.

I'll stick with my original premise: Logic means that EV prices should drop to below ICE as the industry matures. Cost of long term ownership should drop much lower than ICE.

If that IS your ORIGINAL premise, good, I agree. But it seemed to have drifted into 'why aren't EVs cheaper NOW'.

gzoom

AdrianC wrote: »

Lovely. And when that touchscreen has a sulk, effectively writing an otherwise perfectly good car off...

Why would it write off the car?? The touchscreen itself is very unlikely to fail, have you personally had any experience of a touchscreen failing?


The Tesla Media Control Unit (MCU), has been in the Model S since 2012, I've yet to see any Model S been 'written off' because of a MCU failure.


The MCU is undergone 2 major hardware changes since 2012, but it is possible to upgrade even the oldest car to the latest MCU. Given there is no foreseeable end to Tesla moving away from the current 17inch screen/MCU setup in the S/X I doubt very much any Tesla will be deemed worthless because of a MCU failure for a long long time (if ever).


But its not just Tesla moving to touchscreens, the latest Jaguar, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo are stuffed full of touchscreens, though their implementation is far less user friendly as the MCU in the Teslas.

almillar

But its not just Tesla moving to touchscreens, the latest Jaguar, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo are stuffed full of touchscreens, though their implementation is far less user friendly as the MCU in the Teslas.

To be fair, I take Adrian's comment to apply to any car, not just EVs. But I'd say that the screen is more critical in many EVs - showing drivetrain information, as well as radio, sat nav and other luxuries.

zeupater

almillar wrote: »

... a lot of manufacturers seem to be making losses on EVs - point being MAKING AND DELIVERING an EV is expensive ...

Hi

The reason behind this isn't likely to be anything related to componentry or delivery, it's almost certainly that the current build/sale volumes aren't yet high enough to return the investment in R&D, tooling and associated fixed overheads on an amortised basis.

What needs to be considered is that moving the powertrain from combustion to electric deprives groups of manufacturers from accessing their existing shared components inventory, therefore there's a great deal more investment in design, tooling, sourcing etc than in a standard model change or facelift ...

As models, variants and production volumes increase the 'up-front' investment can be amortised over the higher numbers and therefore the cost per vehicle reduces ... that's where volume related profit comes from.

HTH
Z

Martyn1981

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

As models, variants and production volumes increase the 'up-front' investment can be amortised over the higher numbers and therefore the cost per vehicle reduces ... that's where volume related profit comes from.

HTH
Z

Tesla/Elon have suggested that they might be looking at a smaller size $25k EV in a few years, perhaps 5yrs.

That sounds reasonable since they have the Model Y and semi to rollout first, and probably need further production increases and cost reductions on batts.

Certainly sounds do-able so long as production scale is large enough. If the MY aims for 1m cars pa (based on the statements made about CAPEX and production capability) then further cost reductions should appear.

Just a shame to have to sit and wait/watch patiently while one company does what all of the big boys should now be doing. They can't hold out for too long or the Chinese will eat their lunch, or perhaps the Chinese & Nissan who seem to have some nice priced offerings that side of the world.

PS - TM3's are Europe bound, but all LHD.

AdrianC

almillar wrote: »

To be fair, I take Adrian's comment to apply to any car, not just EVs. But I'd say that the screen is more critical in many EVs - showing drivetrain information, as well as radio, sat nav and other luxuries.

Absolutely this isn't in any way unique to EVs. It's simply what is killing more and more cars now, when mechanicals are good for many more years, and bodies are not rotting. Which is exactly why this "Oooh, but there's fewer moving parts" argument is just codswallop. And the more technology gets rammed in there, the more there is to go south. "Virtual cockpit" dashes? Common now. But turn it down a notch, and simply consider HVAC controls on a touch screen - suddenly you can't demist when you want to, or the heating's on full blast in summer.

And, yes, I have had that. I've also had displays that lose pixels and entire rows/columns - it's a very common problem, as cars with displays get older. Then there's the shenanigans with water ingress and multiplexed electronics, as aging screen and door seals leak or neglected pollen filters and cabin air plenums get clogged and overflow.

Martyn1981

AdrianC wrote: »

Which is exactly why this "Oooh, but there's fewer moving parts" argument is just codswallop.

Another gem from AdrianC, must be up to 22 'alternative facts' by now.