£5000 bill for 5 – 6 years of outstanding council tax bill!, Landlords fault !!!

lincroft1710

RLH33 wrote: »

Planning permission will only be used as evidence by the Council, amongst lots of other info, to show the residential use commenced - it is not the deciding factor as many buildings are converted/constructed without ever getting planning permission but do pay and are liable for council tax. Pp therefore cannot be relied upon for the provision of a self contained unit of accommodation.

The Council will investigate using other evidence as well to try to understand when the residential use actually commenced.

You are missing the point. I'm ex VOA and have dealt with hundreds of annex situations and subsequent CT appeals. There is no argument that the annex will have its own CT band, it clearly fits the criteria.

What is important is the effective date for this annex.

If no pp exists or pp without the condition of not being able to be sold separately from main house, then it is a dwelling in its own right and the effective date should be ascertained by the council, which will mean the OP will get a backdated bill.

If there is pp with the condition that the annex cannot be sold separately, then in CT law it is an annex for effective date purposes and the effective date is the date the VOA inform the OP of the band, so no backdated bill.

justwondering25

lincroft1710 wrote: »

You are missing the point. I'm ex VOA and have dealt with hundreds of annex situations and subsequent CT appeals. There is no argument that the annex will have its own CT band, it clearly fits the criteria.

What is important is the effective date for this annex.

If no pp exists or pp without the condition of not being able to be sold separately from main house, then it is a dwelling in its own right and the effective date should be ascertained by the council, which will mean the OP will get a backdated bill.

If there is pp with the condition that the annex cannot be sold separately, then in CT law it is an annex for effective date purposes and the effective date is the date the VOA inform the OP of the band, so no backdated bill.

Thank you for your help once again could I try to split one of the points please.

That been this one :-

If no pp exists or pp without the condition of not being able to be sold separately from main house, then it is a dwelling in its own right and the effective date should be ascertained by the council, which will mean the OP will get a backdated bill.

Slightly different situation....just as a potential 3rd possible scenario which is speculation due to lack of information at present but I will find out more :-

Annex was built / converted sometime ago , e.g over 10 -15 years ago ( if a longer date would apply please let me know , I do know the annex has been there for at least 9 years) no planning permission was sought at the time by the previous owner , annex I assume would have no permission to be sold separately from the main dwelling .

Would that then somehow fall into the "no back dating option" due to the building been in existence beyond x amount of time and that it had no permission to be sold separately from the main dwelling as a result of no planning permission / change of status.....

lincroft1710

justwondering25 wrote: »

Annex was built / converted sometime ago , e.g over 10 -15 years ago ( if a longer date would apply please let me know , I do know the annex has been there for at least 9 years) no planning permission was sought at the time by the previous owner , annex I assume would have no permission to be sold separately from the main dwelling .

Would that then somehow fall into the "no back dating option" due to the building been in existence beyond x amount of time and that it had no permission to be sold separately from the main dwelling as a result of no planning permission / change of status.....

Sadly no. A council cannot stop an owner selling part of his property unless there is a condition of planning permission or restrictive covenant (in the council's favour) preventing such a sale.

justwondering25

lincroft1710 wrote: »

Sadly no. A council cannot stop an owner selling part of his property unless there is a condition of planning permission or restrictive covenant (in the council's favour) preventing such a sale.

Thank you once again for your reply .

I have a couple of questions and a bit more insight...

I was wondering Is this the correct document for Annex reference if so what does "Date of schedule" imply ? is that the part which would imply the property can only be valued from the date the council first became aware of the property ?

http://manuals.voa.gov.uk/corporate/publications/Manuals/CouncilTaxManual/council_tax_man_s2/z-ct-man-sect2-app2.3.html

Disaggregation Issue (3): Any other case

e.g. Where a post compilation list annex to an existing dwelling has been created or discovered that is not shown in the list.
NB This is not a Compiled List error, nor a correction of a previous alteration.

Wales:
Date of coming into existence of annex.
England:
DOS

GDB2222

CIS wrote: »

That would be for the courts to fully determine but to me it reads as if the landlord has told you that, as part of the contract, he will deal with the charge. There's nothing to say you will refund him for any charges.

The clarification from the agents of “The property has electric heating, no gas but yes, council tax & water are Included in the rent. You only need to pay for electricity and telephone.” should be sufficient as a term under the contract to find in your favour in my opinion.

Craig

The court will interpret the contract in the way that it thinks was intended by the parties. Whilst the wording in the contract is open to different interpretations, one of them makes most sense, ie the LL will pay any council tax. The clarification from the agents puts that beyond any doubt, in my opinion.

I would quit worrying about whether you are liable for council tax and put it to the LL that he needs to pay all of it. If he refuses, I think you'll have no choice but to withhold rent and use it to pay the tax. Either way, relations with the LL will be strained.

justwondering25

GDB2222 wrote: »

The court will interpret the contract in the way that it thinks was intended by the parties. Whilst the wording in the contract is open to different interpretations, one of them makes most sense, ie the LL will pay any council tax. The clarification from the agents puts that beyond any doubt, in my opinion.

I would quit worrying about whether you are liable for council tax and put it to the LL that he needs to pay all of it. If he refuses, I think you'll have no choice but to withhold rent and use it to pay the tax. Either way, relations with the LL will be strained.

I agree in that I am blameless in all respects , my landlord and landlady are lovely people who feel blameless in this situation as do I....as they believed when they bought their property the little building / annex which came as part of the purchase , was included as part of the council tax bill , both parties are in a state of disbelief....but thats councils tax and the rules...ignorance is no defence as far as the council tax people are concerned.

Ideally if the bill cannot be back dated then it will all feel very amicable and everyone can carry on been happy with no needs to enter into discussions over who pays the bill.

If the Council tax bill started from 28 days from now , then hey all well and good , I think I would be happy to stay and begin paying the council tax .....but it is a hefty amount for me if it is been back dated , ultimately I would have to pay the bill....then into discussion with my landlord.

GDB2222

justwondering25 wrote: »

I agree in that I am blameless in all respects , my landlord and landlady are lovely people who feel blameless in this situation as do I....as they believed when they bought their property the little building / annex which came as part of the purchase , was included as part of the council tax bill , both parties are in a state of disbelief....but thats councils tax and the rules...ignorance is no defence as far as the council tax people are concerned.

Ideally if the bill cannot be back dated then it will all feel very amicable and everyone can carry on been happy with no needs to enter into discussions over who pays the bill.

If the Council tax bill started from 28 days from now , then hey all well and good , I think I would be happy to stay and begin paying the council tax .....but it is a hefty amount for me if it is been back dated , ultimately I would have to pay the bill....then into discussion with my landlord.

I agree that it's a nuisance all round. However, at least for the past, the LL has contractually agreed to pay the tax. They may have thought to themselves that it did not apply, but that's not your problem.

Essentially you are saying:
1. You'll do everything you can to help them fight the past tax charge, but it's their responsibility to pay for it.
2. You'll agree to a new lease whereby you'll pay the tax in the future.

Why don't you put that to them and see what they say? As you say, you are totally blameless in all this.

justwondering25

GDB2222 wrote: »

I agree that it's a nuisance all round. However, at least for the past, the LL has contractually agreed to pay the tax. They may have thought to themselves that it did not apply, but that's not your problem.

Essentially you are saying:
1. You'll do everything you can to help them fight the past tax charge, but it's their responsibility to pay for it.
2. You'll agree to a new lease whereby you'll pay the tax in the future.

Why don't you put that to them and see what they say? As you say, you are totally blameless in all this.

Thank you for your reply , I offered a similar deal , when it came to light about the property not been on the council tax records , I said I would be happy to pay the council tax from the date it was triggered by me registering to vote so effectively suggesting paying from June 2016 onwards...we did not discuss a new AST , but that might of followed if the discussion went further...

I would really like a amicable solution....I think my offer was fair considering until a new lease is signed / we leave / ask to leave or evicted , the council tax still appears to be contractual to be paid by the landlord / reimbursed to me going forwards.

CIS

the council tax still appears to be contractual to be paid by the landlord / reimbursed to me going forwards.

On an ongoing basis the council tax would be payable by you so if the landlord is going to make payment for you (as per any agreed contract terms) then you need to be sure he's paying it. If he fails to then it'll be you the council come after (again) and for you then to chase the landlord.

Wherever possible I always recommend people to avoid any personal arrangements with the landlord over payment - too many times over the years I have had to step in and try to sort out the mess caused.

Craig

Miss_Samantha

CIS wrote: »

On an ongoing basis the council tax would be payable by you so if the landlord is going to make payment for you (as per any agreed contract terms) then you need to be sure he's paying it. If he fails to then it'll be you the council come after (again) and for you then to chase the landlord.

Even that isn't a good idea because, if I remember from one of your posts, the landlord will still have the right to demand a refund (also forgot the statute).