£5000 bill for 5 – 6 years of outstanding council tax bill!, Landlords fault !!!

justwondering25

lincroft1710 wrote: »

It will very much depend on the planning permission whether your home is treated as an annex or separate dwelling. If the pp specifies it cannot be sold separately from the landlord's house then it is an annex.

Okay , a update on the current situation , the bills have arrived , no discount has been applied for single person , but I assume that is because it has to be applied for and the bills to be amended , the bills have been back dated to 2011 and as expected the total is over 5k !

I am still racking my brains on the Annex situation with the possibility of the bill not been back dated , It seems as if the building a old horses stable was converted some time ago into a livable accommodation for a family member and perhaps with building regulations where used to make it suitable etc.....

my last grasp of the straw for this idea to still apply for not been backdated , as it happens my landlords neighbours house is one band lower than his , both look to be of a similar size etc , is it possible that pre 1993 the date when all houses where valued , was the annex already in place and in use , therefore making my landlords council tax banding higher compared with his neighbors ? therefore the annex was already recognized as been in existence by the council ?

This leads onto another point , when did it become required planning permission for annexes to be registered as a annex / change of use of a building and to be detailed on the house deeds?

The Disaggregation Issue (3): Any other case point , does seem to wise to of been in place back in 1993 , was this part of the original rules ? as the Annex I currently live in might pre date 1993...

Disaggregation Issue (3): Any other case

e.g. Where a post compilation list annex to an existing dwelling has been created or discovered that is not shown in the list.
NB This is not a Compiled List error, nor a correction of a previous alteration.

Wales:
Date of coming into existence of annex.
England:
DOS

Clutching at straws no doubt but still hoping !

CIS

Okay , a update on the current situation , the bills have arrived , no discount has been applied for single person , but I assume that is because it has to be applied for and the bills to be amended , the bills have been back dated to 2011 and as expected the total is over 5k !

Yes you would need to contact the council - if they quibble over the backdating then post again.

was the annex already in place and in use , therefore making my landlords council tax banding higher compared with his neighbors ? therefore the annex was already recognized as been in existence by the council ?

It would still rest on any planning decision before being classed as an annexe for banding purposes - no restriction, no annexe for valuation purposes. As far as I know the issue regarding the planning restriction has been in place since council tax started (although that was before my time).

Craig

justwondering25

Craig, thank you once again for your reply, further discussions this evening, a phone call tomorrow to VOA to discuss the Annex point, for some reason due to the lease been seen by the council, my landlord seems to believe that the DOS point would be Inturpretated as 2011 as as that is when the tenancy begun, but based on what I have learned from you, that is not the case and is unfortunately for the council it is from the date they valued the Annex late Jan 2017.

If the VOA States the rent agreement from 2011 regardless of correct restrictions and planning permission , what point do we need to raise?

The landlords deeds are with the mortgage company, is there a easy way to access these? I presume they are all electronically stored these days.

Would the restrictions be detailed at the planning office also? As it appears it was applied for, but unsure if it was carried out.... All a bit wishy washy at the moment.

But thank you once again

somethingcorporate

Should be able to get the title deeds from the land registry. Costs a couple of quid:

https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds

Give that a try.

You're doing a lot of running here, when really it should be your LL sorting this. It's their property, their error(s) and their liability.

WeeThistle

justwondering25 wrote: »

Okay , a update on the current situation , the bills have arrived , no discount has been applied for single person , but I assume that is because it has to be applied for and the bills to be amended , the bills have been back dated to 2011 and as expected the total is over 5k !

I am still racking my brains on the Annex situation with the possibility of the bill not been back dated , It seems as if the building a old horses stable was converted some time ago into a livable accommodation for a family member and perhaps with building regulations where used to make it suitable etc.....

my last grasp of the straw for this idea to still apply for not been backdated , as it happens my landlords neighbours house is one band lower than his , both look to be of a similar size etc , is it possible that pre 1993 the date when all houses where valued , was the annex already in place and in use , therefore making my landlords council tax banding higher compared with his neighbors ? therefore the annex was already recognized as been in existence by the council ?

This leads onto another point , when did it become required planning permission for annexes to be registered as a annex / change of use of a building and to be detailed on the house deeds?

The Disaggregation Issue (3): Any other case point , does seem to wise to of been in place back in 1993 , was this part of the original rules ? as the Annex I currently live in might pre date 1993...

Disaggregation Issue (3): Any other case

e.g. Where a post compilation list annex to an existing dwelling has been created or discovered that is not shown in the list.
NB This is not a Compiled List error, nor a correction of a previous alteration.

Wales:
Date of coming into existence of annex.
England:
DOS

Clutching at straws no doubt but still hoping !

I'm a Planning Officer. The stables would have required a change of use application to become ancillary accommodation. If this was not obtained then the use is in breach. The Council can only take enforcement action on this for 4 years after the breach has occurred, so if like you say it has been some time since they were converted, no enforcement action can be taken and you would be arguing that the use (as a dwelling) is lawful (by obtaining a Certificate of Lawful Use).

If you don't do this then your argument is that the accommodation is ancillary to the house (an annex) and you need to prove it's not suitable for independent living. For example, if the bills all go to the main house and you just pay the landlord.

I haven't read the whole thread but hope that helps with the annex question. Feel free to ask any questions you may have.

WeeThistle x

justwondering25

WeeThistle wrote: »

I'm a Planning Officer. The stables would have required a change of use application to become ancillary accommodation. If this was not obtained then the use is in breach. The Council can only take enforcement action on this for 4 years after the breach has occurred, so if like you say it has been some time since they were converted, no enforcement action can be taken and you would be arguing that the use (as a dwelling) is lawful (by obtaining a Certificate of Lawful Use).

If you don't do this then your argument is that the accommodation is ancillary to the house (an annex) and you need to prove it's not suitable for independent living. For example, if the bills all go to the main house and you just pay the landlord.

I haven't read the whole thread but hope that helps with the annex question. Feel free to ask any questions you may have.

WeeThistle x

Wow thank you , I think I totally understand that.... just to clarify

1)The Council can only take enforcement action on this for 4 years after the breach has occurred , basically this simply means no one is in any trouble , but the council tax is still back dateable.

2)Yes the accommodation I live in , no bills come to the house , it does not have its own water bill , electric , phone bill etc , the Landlord works all this out , he has a meter that simply counts the electric units used , the telephone is in his name , the water is included as part of the rent.

Wow the case is building up nicely

WeeThistle

justwondering25 wrote: »

Wow thank you , I think I totally understand that.... just to clarify

1)The Council can only take enforcement action on this for 4 years after the breach has occurred , basically this simply means no one is in any trouble , but the council tax is still back dateable.

Correct, but the Council tax can only be calculated for the one house, not as the annex separately if it is decided that the annex is in fact an annex. An annex in planning terms has to be ancillary. If accommodation is to be used for independent use then it is not an annex, it is a separate dwelling requiring Planning Permission and separate Council tax.

2)Yes the accommodation I live in , no bills come to the house , it does not have its own water bill , electric , phone bill etc , the Landlord works all this out , he has a meter that simply counts the electric units used , the telephone is in his name , the water is included as part of the rent.

One of the main things we look for in Certificate of Lawful Use applications (to prove something is a separate and independent dwelling) is proof of bills going to the property. If they are all going to the main house, your house cannot be independent because if you cut off the main house (for example they stopped paying their bills) you could not live. You live in an annex.

Wow the case is building up nicely

See my additions in red above. I hope that helps!

justwondering25

WeeThistle wrote: »

See my additions in red above. I hope that helps!

Brilliant thank you , I hope that means that the point made by the ex Council tax officer , that the council tax cannot be back dated as the place is considered as a annex .

That really helps thank you

justwondering25

CIS wrote: »

Yes you would need to contact the council - if they quibble over the backdating then post again.

It would still rest on any planning decision before being classed as an annexe for banding purposes - no restriction, no annexe for valuation purposes. As far as I know the issue regarding the planning restriction has been in place since council tax started (although that was before my time).

Craig

Hi Craig , do you feel the with the advice from the WeeThistle , that this helps build the case for no back dating of council tax ?

CIS

The key issue is whether or not it meets the VOA definition of an annexe. Planning definitions and VOA definitions of dwellings can and do vary- slightly off topic but as an example, the VOA can regard a single bedroom as an independent dwelling in some cases whereas it's very unlikely that planning would.

Craig