£5000 bill for 5 – 6 years of outstanding council tax bill!, Landlords fault !!!

justwondering25

CIS wrote: »

Pretty much. The Valuation Office Agency will make the decision and advise the council of the date to be used.

How long has it been in existence ?

Craig

I could be wrong but perhaps from 2007 or longer as I believe the property was bought with the so called "Annex" with a tenant in place....is there any ruling that say if it has been used for a particular purpose for longer than say 10 years , then planning permission is no longer required....

So with that in mind , I presume if the place came with a tenant in the building ,that must of passed through a solicitors hands and for mortgage purposes..

justwondering25

lincroft1710 wrote: »

If the earliest date that can be established is the date that the LL bought the property, that is the date the VOA will use

So would that mean for my landlord , he might have to pay from 2007 onwards !! this is sounding very expensive....

So fingers crossed , planning permission was in place and cannot be sold separately from the main dwelling .

I hope the people my landlord bought the property from had all the correct permissions in place....!!

CIS

I could be wrong but perhaps from 2007 or longer as I believe the property was bought with the so called "Annex" with a tenant in place....is there any ruling that say if it has been used for a particular purpose for longer than say 10 years , then planning permission is no longer required....

Planning permission is not required for council tax banding (a property doesn't have to be 'legal' to be a dwelling), it's more that, to an extent, the planning restriction on the property can be reflected for council tax purposes. If it's too late for permission to be required then Id imagine it would be too late for them to restrict it, for planning, as an annexe but that would require a look in to planning law.

So with that in mind , I presume if the place came with a tenant in the building ,that must of passed through a solicitors hands and for mortgage purposes..

You have though that would have been looked at but...

Craig

lincroft1710

Unfortunately I cannot remember the exact circumstances, and planning law may have changed, but 12 plus years ago whilst working at the VOA I had a conversation with a council planning dept concerning a dwelling which had been in existence for about 10 years but had no pp. The planners said they would not (or could not) take any action and the dwelling would be allowed to remain as such indefinitely.

45002

justwondering25 wrote:

£5000 bill for 5 – 6 years of outstanding council tax bill!, due to the Landlord not registering the property with the local council.

The valuer is coming on behalf of the council this week, therefore within 28 days I assume I will be presented with a rather large outstanding council tax bill.

Edited :- I am based in England.

We have already been told by the council that regardless of the original contract signed with the landlord, the tenant will be billed for the council tax, this I accept will be the case and I have the funds to pay the bill in full.

My contract appears to state that the Landlord would cover the costs of the council tax as detailed in the original tenancy agreement contract.

I also have copies of all the original email correspondence from 2011 from the letting agent, clearing stating :- (Cut and Paste from the email) :-

“The property has electric heating, no gas but yes, council tax & water are
Included in the rent. You only need to pay for electricity and telephone.”

Do I have a small claims court case if required to reclaim funds from my landlord for the costs of the council tax bill based on one of the terms and conditions in the original signed agreement?

Thoughts, opinions and advice please:-

I have tried to keep my post as concise as possible while attempting to include as much background history as possible.

I signed a contract with my current landlord back in 2011 one bedroom self-contained small converted barn / granny annex, located on my landlords land, it is not attached to his main house, but is attached to his workshop/garage, I was told the money paid each month £500 included all the bills and costs, except, electric, phone and broadband, I read the contract and it appears that the council tax cost are detailed and part of the contract and for my landlord to cover that cost.

Fast forward 5 years and Due to me registering to vote for Brexit back in 2016 , this has led to the current situation , An estimated incoming bill of just over £5000 for 5 years unpaid council tax , due to the landlord not registering the small building on his land that I reside in, the landlord is pleading ignorance and he assumed the 2nd building was included as part his council tax bill , he has offered to pay half of the arrears….I was told when I moved it , all council tax costs where included in full.

There is a term and condition that appears to states the landlord would deal with the council tax (advice required), ultimately can I reclaim the amount through the small claims court, the cost of the council tax as it appears under contract the landlord has agreed to foot that particular bill at his cost during my tenancy.

Please note the contract signed was via a professional high street letting agent, with a full terms and conditions assured shorthold tenancy agreement and at a suitable local market value based on certain bills been included.

Clause (2b) has been typed and copied verbatim.

Section C – Standard Terms

2 : Tenant’s Undertakings

You Are Required to Pay as Follows

Various other clauses before and after clause (2b), but my questions are based on:-

Clause (2b) The Landlord will deal with the council tax (and water charges) payable in respect of the property for the duration of the Tenancy , or any other local Government or national tax levied upon occupation or Tenancy.

My ponderings and questions:-

1) The original 6 month Tenancy agreement was signed in November 2011, no new contract has been signed since the original signing date.

My landlord agreed verbally that my wife could move in 2015, no new contract was signed.

I assume after the six month tenancy agreement ended I then entered onto a "Statutory Periodic tenancy" with the same terms and conditions as stated in the original tenancy agreement is that correct ?

Do the same terms and conditions as agreed in the original tenancy agreement still stand all the way through from the original date of signing up to present day ? Or where they only valid for 6 months, most importantly in respect of the landlord (2b) charges and services does that clause still remain valid?

My Main Concern With no new contract been signed, have I slipped into some type of standard basic agreement where clause (2b) would not be assumed? E.g. if the matter went to court would the contract suggest the landlord had only agreed to pay for 6 months of the council tax, due to the contract ending or has the contract not ended as no new terms and conditions have been signed ?

2) Section (2) of the agreement is titled as Tenants undertakings "You Are Required to Pay as Follows" does this implies regardless of (2b) that all the following terms detailed below in section 2 are chargeable and payable by the tenant e.g. council tax and water rates?

3) Clause (2b) the phrase "the landlord will deal with:-

“(2b) The Landlord will deal with the council tax (and water charges) payable in respect of the property for the duration of the Tenancy , or any other local Government or national tax levied upon occupation or Tenancy.”

Does (2b) actually suggests the tenant would be paying for the council tax as it is below the heading “2 : Tenant’s Undertakings” but with the landlord merely acting as the collector of funds from the tenant /administrator of the funds / which would in turn be handed over to the council for the payment of the applicable council tax?

4) So if my landlord refuses to reimburse or pay me for the council tax bill, although he is currently talking a 50 / 50 split deal on the bill, is 50/50 not such a bad deal ?

Or do I have a water tight legal case to be reimbursed for the full amount of any council tax bills that I will be charged during the period of the tenancy from November 2011 until the date the property is vacated.

If required, I do have the funds to pay the outstanding council tax in full then to seek to be compensated for the full cost of all council tax costs from the start of the tenancy.

The original contract signing date is longer than 5 years ago, which I believe is the length of time allowable to reclaim funds in the small claims court.

Guestimation:-

Comparable property local property suggests: - Council tax band A


2011 400
2012 815 (if 25 % single person discount is allowed to be applied retrospectively)
2013 815
2014 815
2015 1087 (Married)
2016 1087
2017

Estimated outstanding amount £5019

I have visited my local Citizens Advice Bureau, they said that it appears to them that the landlord has indeed agreed in principle to pay all costs related to the council tax regardless of the bill been in my name and should be reclaimable through the small claims court , but I am unsure if that is indeed the case , the person I went into see at the my local C.A.B might not be A expert in this field.

Feeling concerned and a tad confused!!

I have not yet approached a solicitor.

All help and insight would be most welcome.

For reference

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?77685-%C2%A35000-bill-for-5-%E2%80%93-6-years-of-outstanding-council-tax-bill-Landlords-fault-!

RLH33

Whether the 'annex' has planning permission or not doesn't really matter regarding council tax. It also doesn't matter whether or not it can be sold separately.

Basically if it is a unit of self contained residential accommodation (which this is) then Council tax is due.

lincroft1710

45002 wrote: »

For reference

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?77685-%C2%A35000-bill-for-5-%E2%80%93-6-years-of-outstanding-council-tax-bill-Landlords-fault-!

From the above link

"This is the reverse of the usual chestnut about who is responsible for council tax (where the landlord may be responsible in the bully-boy hierarchy of Councils, but tenant is contractually responsible)."


Contrary to the belief of your fellow landlordzone member, the hierarchy of who is responsible for paying Council Tax is not decided by the council but is set out in Section 6 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992

lincroft1710

RLH33 wrote: »

Whether the 'annex' has planning permission or not doesn't really matter regarding council tax. It also doesn't matter whether or not it can be sold separately.

Basically if it is a unit of self contained residential accommodation (which this is) then Council tax is due.

It matters hugely because the conditions of the pp or lack of pp will affect the effective date, which in the OP's case could cost him £5K plus

RLH33

lincroft1710 wrote: »

It matters hugely because the conditions of the pp or lack of pp will affect the effective date, which in the OP's case could cost him £5K plus

Planning permission will only be used as evidence by the Council, amongst lots of other info, to show the residential use commenced - it is not the deciding factor as many buildings are converted/constructed without ever getting planning permission but do pay and are liable for council tax. Pp therefore cannot be relied upon for the provision of a self contained unit of accommodation.

The Council will investigate using other evidence as well to try to understand when the residential use actually commenced.

justwondering25

Thank you all for your wonderful insight and help , I have heard a little bit more information that the "Annex" was built originally for the daughter of the past owner , but I failed to ask if property could be sold separately from the main house .

I shall keep all upto date.