Dealing with debts and next of kin.

Yorkshireman99

da_rule wrote: »

Whilst the .gov guidelines say that a gravestone can be deducted, there are further guidelines (trying to find the link) that state funeral expenses must be proportionate to the value of the estate. If the estate is worth £10,000 you can't spend £9,000 on the funeral just to get out of paying other debts.

The problem is that "guidelines" are not a definitive statement of the law. Despite much information being available online it is not a substitute for legal textbooks that are not readily accessible to most people. Another difficulty with funerals is that often well meaning relatives get involved and end up liable for the costs that they find difficult, or even impossible to recover from the estate. In the present case no prudent executor would sanction anything but a very basic funeral preferably with cremation rather than burial.

da_rule

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

The problem is that "guidelines" are not a definitive statement of the law. Despite much information being available online it is not a substitute for legal textbooks that are not readily accessible to most people. Another difficulty with funerals is that often well meaning relatives get involved and end up liable for the costs that they find difficult, or even impossible to recover from the estate. In the present case no prudent executor would sanction anything but a very basic funeral preferably with cremation rather than burial.

My College of Law Private Client book (a legal text book used by people undertaking their LPC as well as those in practice) sets out that, with agreement of the beneficiaries, a wake and headstone can be paid for out of the estate, however it must be proportionate to the value of the estate and not incurred simply to avoid paying creditors. If these costs are incurred without the permission of the beneficiaries or are not reasonable given the value of the estate and the debts owed the executor may have to reimburse the estate out of their own pocket.

The question for the OP would appear to be is how much is he planning on spend on the headstone and how much has he already spent on funeral costs? If this equals a significant proportion of the estate then it may be best to just leave the headstone for now (which I understand can be distressing) and then either pay for it once the debts have been settled or fund it between the family. Also, creditors can ask to see how the money in the estate has been managed if you are stating that you cannot pay them in full (they can apply to the courts if you refuse). If they feel that the costs incurred aren't reasonable then they can apply to have the executor reimburse the estate for the unreasonable costs personally.

Yorkshireman99

da_rule wrote: »

My College of Law Private Client book (a legal text book used by people undertaking their LPC as well as those in practice) sets out that, with agreement of the beneficiaries, a wake and headstone can be paid for out of the estate, however it must be proportionate to the value of the estate and not incurred simply to avoid paying creditors. If these costs are incurred without the permission of the beneficiaries or are not reasonable given the value of the estate and the debts owed the executor may have to reimburse the estate out of their own pocket.

The question for the OP would appear to be is how much is he planning on spend on the headstone and how much has he already spent on funeral costs? If this equals a significant proportion of the estate then it may be best to just leave the headstone for now (which I understand can be distressing) and then either pay for it once the debts have been settled or fund it between the family. Also, creditors can ask to see how the money in the estate has been managed if you are stating that you cannot pay them in full (they can apply to the courts if you refuse). If they feel that the costs incurred aren't reasonable then they can apply to have the executor reimburse the estate for the unreasonable costs personally.

Thnaks for that. It is a great pity that the Government website is so misleading.

Savvy_Sue

jay213 wrote: »

Another question I just thought of, can utility debts pass on to relatives staying in the house?

When you say 'staying in the house', do you mean visitors passing through for the funeral, or relatives who are now living in what was Mum's house?

Anyone whose name was on the bills with Mum can and will be pursued for utility debts. I'm not sure what the position is if they were living there but did not have their name on the bills.

If someone is now living in Mum's house, then they should as a matter of urgency get the bills into their own name, and questions will be asked about what date that's effective from.

jay213

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

When you say 'staying in the house', do you mean visitors passing through for the funeral, or relatives who are now living in what was Mum's house?

Anyone whose name was on the bills with Mum can and will be pursued for utility debts. I'm not sure what the position is if they were living there but did not have their name on the bills.

If someone is now living in Mum's house, then they should as a matter of urgency get the bills into their own name, and questions will be asked about what date that's effective from.

Yes, living in the house. No, their names were not on the bills. I was wondering if the utility companies could pass them on to any family living there.

Savvy_Sue

jay213 wrote: »

Yes, living in the house. No, their names were not on the bills. I was wondering if the utility companies could pass them on to any family living there.

Not the debts for the utilities AFAIK, EXCEPT possibly the council tax. If they were living in the house with Mum before she died, then I believe their name(s) should have been on the CT bills, with joint and several liability.

However, when you / they notify the utility companies of who is now responsible for the bills and Mum's date of death, I would expect them to try to recover the debts from anyone who was sharing the house with Mum when they find out that there was another adult in the house with Mum. I'm sure CT will do so.

You say Mum didn't own the house, so on what basis is the tenancy now?

jay213

da_rule wrote: »

Unfortunately you have gone way too far to renounce now. Making contact with creditors, moving the money into your account etc.

I've been a bit confused and I've put off dealing with the debt for the last x amount of weeks as CAB gave me an appointment for next week. In regards to renouncing, the main thing I've done is have my mums money from her bank account transferred to mine and then paid the related expenses. I contacted maybe one creditor informally and didn't follow it up.

My brothers back on the scene, after phoning the insurance company, as it looks like we may get a payout. He's back to acting like a nutter and threatening me after I told him sorting out the debts could take up to 6 months to a year, screaming that he's not waiting 6 months etc. Nobody else will say anything to him.

For the insurance payout somebody will have to apply for probate, now I really don't want to be involved in all this and I'm wondering, if my main association is through my mums bank account, how likely is it that a company/creditor would find out I was a representative through this transfer? I mean wouldn't they have to contact the bank? and why would they? and then maybe have my brother set up an "Estate of Mum" account?

If my brother applies for probate wouldn't any creditors go after him as the person with the probate title? I'm just trying to think of ways to avoid being involved as my brother is a nasty piece of work and doesn't care and wants to fight me over it.

Yorkshireman99

If he is threatening you then report him to the Police. Don't allow yourself to be bullied. If he wants to apply for probate let him try.

jay213

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

If he is threatening you then report him to the Police. Don't allow yourself to be bullied. If he wants to apply for probate let him try.

Yes, that is something to consider, but wouldn't be welcomed I imagine with my siblings/family (I think). I could also imagine at a minimum, my car receiving a few "accidents" outside.

With regards to him getting probate, do you think I may be able to get out of the picture with creditors and in essence leave him to it? I think that's probably the only reason to let him get probate.

His gf mentioned we could go to a solicitor and see if I can get removed/change it to one of my brothers?(well, the normal one don't want nothing to do with it).

Yorkshireman99

You really need to get some professional advice. Many solicitors off a free half hour initial consultation. Whilst myself and others give what we believe to be the correct view there really is no substitute for the real thing.