Dealing with debts and next of kin.

getmore4less

just picking up this point I missed earlier.

da_rule wrote: »

My College of Law Private Client book (a legal text book used by people undertaking their LPC as well as those in practice) sets out that, with agreement of the beneficiaries, a wake and headstone can be paid for out of the estate, however it must be proportionate to the value of the estate and not incurred simply to avoid paying creditors. If these costs are incurred without the permission of the beneficiaries or are not reasonable given the value of the estate and the debts owed the executor may have to reimburse the estate out of their own pocket.

.....

with an insolvent estate there are no beneficiaries to consult.

Tuesday_Tenor

jay213 wrote: »

For the insurance payout somebody will have to apply for probate,

I would double check this with the insurance company. It is normally the case, but if the estate is insolvent there would be no other reason for applying for probate. If you explain this fact you MIGHT find that the insurance company has a different mechanism for such exceptional cases, such as recipient(s) signing an indemnity clause ( that they are right person to receive the funds) instead.

I don't know how likely this is, but I think I read of something like this on this board a year or so ago, in a similar situation.

Tuesday_Tenor

Further thoughts after my previous post:

I don't want to re-read whole thread, as it is confusing in parts
( reflecting the difficult and confused situation you find yourself in).

Can you confirm whether the insurance policy
(A) pays out to named beneficiaries (and so falls outside the estate)
Or
(B) pays out to the estate of the deceased. It is still worth double-checking, but in this case probably probate has to be applied for, and outstanding debts paid, before any remaining monies can be distributed.

If it has to go to probate, I would, as suggested, seek legal advice as to your position, having already taken the bank account funds to pay necessary expenses and potentially pay towards debts.

jay213

Tuesday_Tenor wrote: »

I would double check this with the insurance company. It is normally the case, but if the estate is insolvent there would be no other reason for applying for probate. If you explain this fact you MIGHT find that the insurance company has a different mechanism for such exceptional cases, such as recipient(s) signing an indemnity clause ( that they are right person to receive the funds) instead.

I don't know how likely this is, but I think I read of something like this on this board a year or so ago, in a similar situation.

My brother said the insurance company asked for a Grant of Probate to make a claim, but it could be worth while inquiring about an indemnity clause if not wanting to go through probate.

Does probate make you the main person to be dealt with/chased by creditors?

Also if my brother does go for probate, and claim the insurance I'm not sure what he would do with the money, as he's already suggested to me yesterday that our three younger siblings should get less than us older ones, which I disagreed with before he kicked off after I mentioned how long the process could take.

jay213

Tuesday_Tenor wrote: »

Further thoughts after my previous post:

I don't want to re-read whole thread, as it is confusing in parts
( reflecting the difficult and confused situation you find yourself in).

Can you confirm whether the insurance policy
(A) pays out to named beneficiaries (and so falls outside the estate)
Or
(B) pays out to the estate of the deceased. It is still worth double-checking, but in this case probably probate has to be applied for, and outstanding debts paid, before any remaining monies can be distributed.

If it has to go to probate, I would, as suggested, seek legal advice as to your position, having already taken the bank account funds to pay necessary expenses and potentially pay towards debts.

Hi, I don't think anybody was named on the policy. We received a blank claim form that we filled in and all of us signed.

Would the insurance company have informed us when we initially contacted them if there were named beneficiaries? I imagine that they probably would have.

jay213

Having a think about it, if my brother get's probate nothing will get paid (he kicks off regarding paying debts) and he may not share the remaining money out (even the figures he mentioned didn't add up to the full amount), from what's been said he may possibly be planning to apply for probate without telling us as he found out from the insurance company that any of us could apply for it and getting a solicitor.

If that is the case would I/we be able to reject to this?

The rest of my siblings are on the same sort of page, we're going to meet up tomorrow and work out what to do with the debts etc and how to approach our psychopath brother. I think it's best to show we're all on the same page and stand up against him, unfortunately he's very likely to kick off or attack somebody at some stage. I'll contact the police if anybody gets attacked, do you think there are any other precautionary steps I/we should take?

Yorkshireman99

jay213 wrote: »

Having a think about it, if my brother get's probate nothing will get paid (he kicks off regarding paying debts) and he may not share the remaining money out (even the figures he mentioned didn't add up to the full amount), from what's been said he may possibly be planning to apply for probate without telling us as he found out from the insurance company that any of us could apply for it and getting a solicitor.

If that is the case would I/we be able to reject to this?

The rest of my siblings are on the same sort of page, we're going to meet up tomorrow and work out what to do with the debts etc and how to approach our psychopath brother. I think it's best to show we're all on the same page and stand up against him, unfortunately he's very likely to kick off or attack somebody at some stage. I'll contact the police if anybody gets attacked, do you think there are any other precautionary steps I/we should take?

If he splits for probate he will have to explain why only he is applying. You can lodge a caveat against him getting probate and insist he has to do it jointly. If he really is being stupid the police should involved and he can end up with all sorts of things used to control him.

jay213

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

If he splits for probate he will have to explain why only he is applying. You can lodge a caveat against him getting probate and insist he has to do it jointly. If he really is being stupid the police should involved and he can end up with all sorts of things used to control him.

Thanks, with regards to doing it jointly with him and/or my other siblings would he still be able to make a claim on the insurance by himself? The concern is that if he is able to claim the insurance potentially nobody would get anything or at his discretion (and the figures he already mentioned not being equally distributed and don't add up to the full amount..oh and that excludes paying any debts). He's been a career criminal and a person who "rips off" things, so doesn't care about debts or a black mark on his name.

Like I say he has been a criminal for years and thinks he knows all the tricks and his rights and that he can out-smart the system. He's been caught for crimes practically red handed and managed to get away with stuff i.e. not enough evidence, him denying it etc. Knowing this I would imagine if he attacked anyone in the house it might end up my/our word against his. He don't work but he's always driving around our area. He makes his money with dodgy people and doing dodgy stuff.

He's keeps on talking about "they're not my debts", but I do know we can't have him as the main person to claim the insurance. He seems like he's willing to die over this money...maybe that's a bit much but he's a really aggressive person and this is probably the most money he is going to be able to gain access too. the total not the share after we split it equality and pay debts.

Yorkshireman99

You need to check with the insurance company to find the exact terms. You can also warn them of your concerns.The bottom line is are you prepared to be bullied or not?

jay213

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

You need to check with the insurance company to find the exact terms. You can also warn them of your concerns.The bottom line is are you prepared to be bullied or not?

No, I think it's time for us to stand up to him. I'm on the receiving end as he see's me as the obstacle to all the money he thinks he's entitled too. Hopefully they don't come across this thread as I'm sure they'll be researching the process too as he may have started making calls (I'm guessing, possibly solicitors or at the least the one who normally get's him out of jail.)