Polyurethane Form Insulation a good idea?

Furts

diymonkey wrote: »

Sorry, but to say go google it is quite patronising, because if you had noticed, I've already posted the direct links to these BBA certs for both Walltite and Technitherm. What I'm interested in is that you mentioned risk of damp, but I wanted to know where within the certificate it mentions about damp, like you stated in post #33. You keep warning off people, but you have to back it up with evidence, so please show me on the certificate where these issues are mentioned.

As for the number of posts....well this is a discussion to which your contributing too. Even if it went on for a 1000 posts it doesn't make a difference because I like others am here to find solutions, therefore it shouldn't matter how many posts this thread goes on as I'm sure others would find it valuable if they ever come across it.

You have not read the BBA Certificates, you have not had a survey of your home undertaken, you have not sought professional advice, you refuse to take on board my comments and you have not addressed any of the items which I have raised. A crazy situation when you are being given professionally qualified, free of charge, advice.

Cowboys abound in the cavity wall industry, always looking for consumers to take advantage of. You stand a great risk of being one of these unfortunates. I wish you well but there is no point me adding any further posts to your thread.

diymonkey

Furts wrote: »

You have not read the BBA Certificates, you have not had a survey of your home undertaken, you have not sought professional advice, you refuse to take on board my comments and you have not addressed any of the items which I have raised. A crazy situation when you are being given professionally qualified, free of charge, advice.

Cowboys abound in the cavity wall industry, always looking for consumers to take advantage of. You stand a great risk of being one of these unfortunates. I wish you well but there is no point me adding any further posts to your thread.

I was being polite in my previous reply, but you haven't even read or listened to what I've said. I've already had a cavity-wall boroscope survey done by the company whom is doing the job. I have tried to understand what your saying but you've become very defensive and instead of helping, your attitude is that I need to find the info myself. Well if that was the case, I wouldn't need to post on these forums asking for help and advise. I'm disappointed that instead of giving proper thorough advise, your simply giving a short-shrift answer not breaking down what your trying to insinuate. Thanks for all your help, but if that's how you feel then I guess I can't do anything about it.

System

There are loads of ways to improve energy efficiency in a house - filling a purposely ventilated cavity isn't a great way to start imo
What measures have you taken so far? What other methods of insulating your walls have you investigated?
If you are seriously considering CWI ask the company to provide dew point calculations for each cavity width, uvalues for each width, details at window heads/jambs/below cills and wall heads

Furts

the_r_sole wrote: »

There are loads of ways to improve energy efficiency in a house - filling a purposely ventilated cavity isn't a great way to start imo
What measures have you taken so far? What other methods of insulating your walls have you investigated?
If you are seriously considering CWI ask the company to provide dew point calculations for each cavity width, uvalues for each width, details at window heads/jambs/below cills and wall heads

Good points and they should be a wake up call to OP. To these one can add postcode, altitude, degree of exposure, condition of mortar, pointing details, history of frost, details around meter boxes, investigation of built in joist ends, investigations of head of cavity walls and...

The most blatant elephant in the room has always been why the cavities vary so much. No builder works with a verticality tolerance of over 100mm. This in itself warrants further investigation.

To say a "survey" has been undertaken and to justify this by saying four small holes have been drilled leaves me speechless. This is not a survey, it is 100% pure bullsh-t. However, OP is obliged to sign terms connected with the survey. For example has it been agreed that any areas are excluded from injecting.

Whilst OP is happy to shoot me down the queries I have raised so far remain unanswered. Maybe there will be something worthwhile from this post?

Regardless, CWI has given rise to countless concerns. Behind these lies a fundamental point. CWI is a structural/technical matter well beyond the understanding of typical consumers. Consequently all consumers should clue themselves up on the relevant BBA Certificate - but they do not. All consumers should be presenting a technically correct home, that is properly maintained to a high standard - but they do not. All consumers should be willing to take on professional advice - but they do not. All consumers should be inspecting the work - but they do not.

Is it any wonder problems then arise?

thebaldwindowfitter

Furts gives answers very much like the expensive home surveys we have done ie consult relevant contractor couldnt get in loft to check roof couldnt check under floor etc etc in other words useless because they dont know hence they point you to pages instead of helping you with the relevent parts rather than you reading through bba certs till you are blue in the face probally without causing offence miost of which is meaning less probally like asking Furts to read something on positivity .

diymonkey

- the_r_sole - Unfortunately unless I'm loaded enough to go private, no company is willing to provide info such as dew or uvalues. I can't go for other methods, because, if I go for internal wall insulation, my rooms would reduce quite a bit in size and if externally I have half-stone/half-pebble, so council won't allow it as it would ruin the original looks of the house. So far I've had loft, roof and suspended floor insulation, double-glazed doors & windows. New A* Boiler....Can you recommend anything else???

- Furts - I'm not shooting you down mate...I'm simply asking you to help show me where it states in the BBA certificate about possible damp problems? None of the areas are excluded from injections. You seem to forget that not everyone is rich and I don't have that sort of money to spend and check every bit, otherwise I wouldn't need to post on forums. Even if I went with a private job, it still would be similar style, i.e. a few drilled holes and a boroscope. You keep stating that CWI has given a rise to a lot of concerns, but it's also a fact that there are umpteen amount of houses that have had the insulation without any issues. You say consumers should clue themselves up with an understanding of the BBA certs, but your also stating "CWI is a structural/technical matter well beyond the understanding of typical consumers." so you clearly understand that I as a general consumer don't have the technical knowledge to understand this.

- thebaldwindowfitter - I also agree with you, because furts still hasn't shown any concrete evidence and his answers are always along the lines that the consumer should spend hundreds, if not thousands of £££ to get these surveys done, but he needs to understand that:-

a) I don't have that sort of money
b) some of these surveys never give you a clear-cut answer and will put in a million GET-OUT clauses in the event of their mistake
c) the surveyors won't check everything due to some excuse such as "lack-of-access".

so as a consumer I'm still where I was, whilst being hundreds of £££ out of pocket.

A clear example is when I bought this property. I paid almost £1500 for a builders survey, specialist reports to check everything and when it came to it, they provided a load of rubbish reports and stating that they were unable to do certain checks due to access or safety issues. One thing they noted was that they suspected wood-worm on a joist further in the loft, but could not confirm for definite because there was difficulty in accessing the place and they were not willing to go there on H&S grounds, so when I got another specialist to come out at further costs, he said there were no woodworm, but simply the owner had been sticking drawing pins in the joists to hang some stuff and that the surveyor could have checked this easily by crouching down and crawling.

System

If they are not willing to give you full information free of charge then that tells you an awful lot.
Dew point calcs and uvalue calcs are generally carried out for free to show compliance with regs, worry if these salesmen tell you otherwise, for example you could phone kingspan or use the online celotex tools to do these calcs for their insulation products, I've even recently had these provided by a German company for a curved roof with absolutely no problem...
Paying more for heating over a few years is likely a better investment than trying to sort damp in a few years.
Internal insulation is really the most effective and safest way to insulate cavity walls. But you really need to get a handle on the uvalues of all these products to decide how much you will lose from your room.
Also with the CWI you should do some research about the difference between potential cost savings and actual cost savings on the heating, there are a couple of organisations that can help although you need to take a subjective view on them - there was one called the victims of cavity wall insulation or something who had a lot of info so you can see how they feel about it!
But be very wary of any of the "free" deals for new, unproven products, it's extremely common that these companies operate for a few years to get the government money and then mysteriously go under just as claims start against them

diymonkey

the_r_sole wrote: »

If they are not willing to give you full information free of charge then that tells you an awful lot.
Dew point calcs and uvalue calcs are generally carried out for free to show compliance with regs, worry if these salesmen tell you otherwise, for example you could phone kingspan or use the online celotex tools to do these calcs for their insulation products, I've even recently had these provided by a German company for a curved roof with absolutely no problem...
Paying more for heating over a few years is likely a better investment than trying to sort damp in a few years.
Internal insulation is really the most effective and safest way to insulate cavity walls. But you really need to get a handle on the uvalues of all these products to decide how much you will lose from your room.
Also with the CWI you should do some research about the difference between potential cost savings and actual cost savings on the heating, there are a couple of organisations that can help although you need to take a subjective view on them - there was one called the victims of cavity wall insulation or something who had a lot of info so you can see how they feel about it!
But be very wary of any of the "free" deals for new, unproven products, it's extremely common that these companies operate for a few years to get the government money and then mysteriously go under just as claims start against them

Much appreciate your advice. Regarding companies going under....I thought even if they did, the claim would be against an insurance company? Or am I wrong? Also technitherm & walltite are not unproven products and have been used in thousands of homes. Their uvalue is approx 0.25-26 assuming the cavity is around 100mm.

My friend, I don't think internal insulation is possible as firstly I would lose a large amount of each room and being a semi, there is a huge side wall, covering the hallway, staircase, bathroom, bedrooms, part of kitchen. The cost of getting this done would run into thousands because as a guess, I would have to work with 7 windows, 2 doors, dado rails, staircase hand rails, width of stairs, original coving, skirting, wall lights, kitchen units.

You earlier asked what measures I've already carried out to help with heating and I mentioned these in my previous post....can you recommend any others?

Furts

diymonkey wrote: »

- the_r_sole - Unfortunately unless I'm loaded enough to go private, no company is willing to provide info such as dew or uvalues. I can't go for other methods, because, if I go for internal wall insulation, my rooms would reduce quite a bit in size and if externally I have half-stone/half-pebble, so council won't allow it as it would ruin the original looks of the house. So far I've had loft, roof and suspended floor insulation, double-glazed doors & windows. New A* Boiler....Can you recommend anything else???

- Furts - I'm not shooting you down mate...I'm simply asking you to help show me where it states in the BBA certificate about possible damp problems? None of the areas are excluded from injections. You seem to forget that not everyone is rich and I don't have that sort of money to spend and check every bit, otherwise I wouldn't need to post on forums. Even if I went with a private job, it still would be similar style, i.e. a few drilled holes and a boroscope. You keep stating that CWI has given a rise to a lot of concerns, but it's also a fact that there are umpteen amount of houses that have had the insulation without any issues. You say consumers should clue themselves up with an understanding of the BBA certs, but your also stating "CWI is a structural/technical matter well beyond the understanding of typical consumers." so you clearly understand that I as a general consumer don't have the technical knowledge to understand this.

- thebaldwindowfitter - I also agree with you, because furts still hasn't shown any concrete evidence and his answers are always along the lines that the consumer should spend hundreds, if not thousands of £££ to get these surveys done, but he needs to understand that:-

a) I don't have that sort of money
b) some of these surveys never give you a clear-cut answer and will put in a million GET-OUT clauses in the event of their mistake
c) the surveyors won't check everything due to some excuse such as "lack-of-access".

so as a consumer I'm still where I was, whilst being hundreds of £££ out of pocket.

A clear example is when I bought this property. I paid almost £1500 for a builders survey, specialist reports to check everything and when it came to it, they provided a load of rubbish reports and stating that they were unable to do certain checks due to access or safety issues. One thing they noted was that they suspected wood-worm on a joist further in the loft, but could not confirm for definite because there was difficulty in accessing the place and they were not willing to go there on H&S grounds, so when I got another specialist to come out at further costs, he said there were no woodworm, but simply the owner had been sticking drawing pins in the joists to hang some stuff and that the surveyor could have checked this easily by crouching down and crawling.

CWI is a technical matter and my comment about advice is correct. The fundamental is if you do not understand what you read then you ask. You are declining to pay for professional advice and want the guidance, and the product, free of charge. It is a simple fact of life that by doing so there will be risks, or a trade off. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

I accept you have tried asking but you asked the questions to idiots. The fact that your cowboy sales people and cowboy surveyors did a runner when you wanted information should tell you do not touch these folks with a barge pole. The scenarios are clear. They do not care, they do not know, and they do not give a f--k about you and your home. However they want to roll you over and make money out of you.

By all means go ahead with the Technitherm. It is your home and your choice. But you have to accept that you are taking a huge risk by doing so, and also going against the worthy advice being offered from this forum.

Since you have not answered the situation regarding approved contractors, Buildings Regulations and CIGA (all of which I mention yet again) then the huge risk currently appears wholly unacceptable to any reasonably minded folks.

bluesnake

diymonkey, i will come clean. I have in interest in this topic because in the future I (not me really doing the building:) ) would like to get built a Passive House/Net-Zero house, if health allows me. I would not call myself an expert, but I am fairly well read - in theory .

The first thing they do is to put down a moisture barrier and insulate the foundation. They avoid cold bridges. Also the walls are thick with a high R value. They in effect they insulate the outside and put a skin over it. Foam is only used on thermal bridges, the odd inaccessible areas, and thermally sealing joints. They can only spay foam up to a certain thickness. There are problems with the foam if that thickness is too much and is applied in one application.

They all have heat recovery ventilation systems from stale air. Apparently the HRVs recover 90+% of heat which i find hard to believe, and the good one recovers more, and cost less than heating the air.

Loose fill - often treated paper (blown cellulose) is the choice to blow into the walls due to cheap effectiveness. Also loose material, or perlite as recommended by Germans, can be vacuumed out, but this may not be easy, might be time consuming, might be expensive, and you have to store the stuff somewhere, but compared to foam, once is in, I doubt you will ever get it out.

Also in very cold countries, they build off the ground. This stops moisture coming through the ground and into the house. It also stops the house from heating the ground, becoming wet due to thawing, and draining away the heat. Because the floor is so insulated the wind blowing under the house does not significantly cool the house, but does remove the moisture from the land and prevents dampness rising, and rot.

You already sound like you have damp issues which are quite major. These will become worse, and the air will be trapped. I believe you need to sort out the wetness before insulating and have an exit strategy to remove the moisture efficiently, due to laundry, cooking, showering, drying clothes, plants and breathing etc. Also water coming in and/or under your house, and under house ventilation may have to be looked at too.

Just take out a cold beer in summertime and see how quickly beads of condensation appear.

I would guess and I might be very wrong, but if condensation/wetness gets trapped between the outside wall and the insulation, the water will keep cycling through freeze and expand cycles in winter, creating a gap which will either over time push the outside wall out, or compromise the foam until it finds enough heat for it to keep liquid and may even cause water to go into the room. In summer I would expect some water to be absorbed, leaving air pockets which when heated may also expand. to be fair there always will be some water vapour, but if you cant control the external source, you a fighting a loosing battle

When they insulate the outside of a house, I believe they put in a water/moisture barrier on the external walls.