Why are leavers so angry

ruggedtoast

Cornucopia wrote: »

You seem very strongly tied to this notion of "us" and "them". I see that in your inter-generational ranting, too - wanting all "Boomers" to be them, despite the fact that they are not an organised group in any way.

Here, it makes equally little sense. Leave and Remain are a binary choice imposed across a complex existing political landscape. Whilst we might over-simplify down to Right=Leave and Left=Remain, the truth is rather more complex than that - as Jeremy Corbyn could no doubt attest to, had he slightly more backbone.

Yes, UKIP is a very complex political diaspora.

Are you a closet racist? Y/N

I am still trying to get my head around all the subtleties.

ViolaLass

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Hahaha jog on.

It's not a war, you're not being stripped of any rights that impinge on your ability to live your life.

Stop being a muppet.

I could be losing rights that will affect my life.

I've lived and worked in Italy before and want to do so again. I can't claim Italian citizenship despite being ethnically Italian so I want to retain the right to live and work there.

Some of us are bothered for very concrete reasons.

TrickyTree83

ViolaLass wrote: »

I could be losing rights that will affect my life.

I've lived and worked in Italy before and want to do so again. I can't claim Italian citizenship despite being ethnically Italian so I want to retain the right to live and work there.

Some of us are bothered for very concrete reasons.

Nothing to stop you applying for a visa if it comes to that.

It doesn't stop you doing what you want to do, it's merely more difficult.

I would have loved for me and my wife to not have to pay many thousands of pounds for visa's in the UK, but we did. It was inconvenient but we were still able to do what we needed to do.

It's a poor argument at best to say that rights are being lost that stop people doing what they want to do.

Ballard

Fella wrote: »

That's the whole point. Had we triggered Article 50 6 months ago, work on the deal would have begun immediately. Instead of, as you point out, not beginning for 9 or more months which will actually be the case.

The delay in triggering it is not being spent achieving anything worthwhile, it is just extra delay. And no matter how much we delay, and regardless of how long a process Article 50 triggered, we'll be told it's not enough. And most of the people telling us that will be people who don't want Brexit to take place, at all.

How can the government work on a deal when none of them seem to know what they want to get out of it in the end? Do they want us to be in the single market or accept FoM, for example? You have to have a clear understanding of where you want to be at the end of negotiations before you start. You might not get that deal but it's a starting point.

ruggedtoast

Ballard wrote: »

How can the government work on a deal when none of them seem to know what they want to get out of it in the end? Do they want us to be in the single market or accept FoM, for example? You have to have a clear understanding of where you want to be at the end of negotiations before you start. You might not get that deal but it's a starting point.

What the government wants out of it is for the Tory Party to be in power for ever. That and for the corporate backers who have paid them off to receive the payday that they expect at the expense of the poor and middle earners.

That is all the government wants and to infer anything else is to imagine a level of complexity that Theresa May's cabinet simply does not have.

That said, she appears to have no idea how to bring any of this about at the moment.

mrginge

ruggedtoast wrote: »

What the government wants out of it is for the Tory Party to be in power for ever.

And as the nations favourite (pretend) socialist / AWL apparatchik you're doing everything possible to make sure that that dream becomes a reality.

Keep fighting for the cause rugged, we're all behind you!

mayonnaise

Fella wrote: »

The simple fact is that you, like every other Remainer, are perfectly happy for Article 50 to remain untriggered for as long as possible because you know full well it delays (& most Remainers hope, prevents) Brexit.

What a load of tosh.
Can you point to anyone still saying Art.50 shouldn't be triggered, or is this more post-truth paranoia from an angry brexiteer?

Trigger Art.50 tomorrow I'd say.
EU won't negotiate without notification anyway.

ViolaLass

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Nothing to stop you applying for a visa if it comes to that.

At the moment, I can wander over there at will and stay for as long as I want (and have done so).

I am also at an advantage when applying for the kind of jobs I want compared to people who need to get a visa.

I don't want to lose those advantages.

I also am yet to be convinced that we'll actually have advantages from leaving. The case is not clear cut and 'hope' is not a strategy.

TrickyTree83

ViolaLass wrote: »

At the moment, I can wander over there at will and stay for as long as I want (and have done so).

I am also at an advantage when applying for the kind of jobs I want compared to people who need to get a visa.

I don't want to lose those advantages.

I also am yet to be convinced that we'll actually have advantages from leaving. The case is not clear cut and 'hope' is not a strategy.

It's not a disadvantage unless the employer discriminates. My wife was not at a disadvantage in applying for jobs in the UK just because she's not a citizen of an EU country.

They wanted to know if she had ILR, she did, end of story. She then went through the process the same way as anyone from the EU or the UK did.

So applying for the relevant visa, getting the relevant visa, applying for the job, telling the employer you have you relevant visa. You'll still be able to do what you want to do it'll just be more difficult than before. You've not lost the right to do so.

kabayiri

ViolaLass wrote: »

At the moment, I can wander over there at will and stay for as long as I want (and have done so).

I am also at an advantage when applying for the kind of jobs I want compared to people who need to get a visa.

I don't want to lose those advantages.

I also am yet to be convinced that we'll actually have advantages from leaving. The case is not clear cut and 'hope' is not a strategy.

All you illustrate is that you vote in self interest.

This is fine.

Just remember, that there are plenty of others who operate outside this EU ideal.

I will benefit from more migration of people outside the EU than in the EU.

It's the same motivation of self interest, just a different perspective.