Straw poll: Do you want to retain FOM?

Doshwaster

John_Lilburne_2911 wrote: »

The benefit to Brits of FOM out of the UK to mainland EU is way over exaggerated.Thousands of Brits lived and worked quite successfully in mainland Europe well before the EU's FOM.

So if you don't think ending FOM will adversely affect British people's ability to work in Europe why would it reduce the number of European people coming here?

parking_question_chap

Doshwaster wrote: »

So if you don't think ending FOM will adversely affect British people's ability to work in Europe why would it reduce the number of European people coming here?

Generally Brits dont go over to another country and expect to claim benefits. They either work or retire abroad and pay into the system rather than take out.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

parking_question_chap wrote: »

Generally Brits dont go over to another country and expect to claim benefits. They either work or retire abroad and pay into the system rather than take out.

Around 90% of EU migrants do not claim tax credits.

Furthermore just 0.3% of claims for child benefit in the UK are for EU migrants with (some) children overseas.

And EU migrants are less likely to claim out of work benefits than the native born.

Hence why EU migrants pay in billions of pounds a year more than they take out.

You should hope almost all of them stay as they subsidise the native born to a huge extent every year....

John_Lilburne_2911

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Around 90% of EU migrants do not claim tax credits.

Can you post a link to the data because I had a very brief look and found on the fullfacts website that in 1Q of 2014:


"EU-born migrants are more likely to receive tax credits than people born in the UK
In the first quarter of 2014, EU-born people of working age were more likely to report receiving tax credits (14%) than the UK born (11%).
The largest gap in rates of claiming was between people born in countries that joined the EU before 2004 and since 2004. 18% of people from new member states reported receiving tax credits compared to 8% from the pre-2004 members".

I can't post the link to the fullfacts website but its there for anyone to look for.




Now that data is nearly 3 years old and the trajectory is upwards so I'd like to see some up to date figures. But it does suggest EU migrants are more likely to claim in work benefits but as you say less likely to claim out of work benefits which is not really surprising given the low unemployment figures we currently have.

What it does show is the 2004 accession countries migrants are more likely to need in work benefits which is possibly down to the fact that many of the 2004 EU migrants work in the lower paid industries such as manufacturing and the service industries. I can post a link to prove my point after I have posted a few more times , not allowed to post any links yet.

Hence why EU migrants pay in billions of pounds a year more than they take out.

Not sure you can claim that ,for one thing you are incorrect on the in work benefits claim you make and does the above statement take into account EU migrants cost to the NHS,Schools etc?.

I do however agree with you that on the whole EU migrants come here to work and not claim benefits. I think where you are wrong is how many of them rely on in work benefits because this also includes housing benefit which can be a fair cost.

parking_question_chap

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Around 90% of EU migrants do not claim tax credits.Furthermore just 0.3% of claims for child benefit in the UK are for EU migrants with (some) children overseas.

Oh, never mind about the 10% huh.

And EU migrants are less likely to claim out of work benefits than the native born.

Reliable source please.

Hence why EU migrants pay in billions of pounds a year more than they take out.

Complete guesswork, no way could you possibly know the net drain on resources, infrastructure etc. If so reliable source please. Plus of course there are many immigrants earning/claiming and sending the money to relatives abroad.

You should hope almost all of them stay as they subsidise the native born to a huge extent every year....

As per above.

Doshwaster

parking_question_chap wrote: »

Generally Brits dont go over to another country and expect to claim benefits. They either work or retire abroad and pay into the system rather than take out.

If the system allows (and even encourages) them to claim in-work benefits then you can't blame them for doing so.

Even when we are out of the EU and FOM presumably ends, these low pay, low skill jobs will still need doing. There aren't enough unemployed people in the South East to do these jobs so they will have to come from somewhere.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

John_Lilburne_2911 wrote: »

Can you post a link to the data

parking_question_chap wrote: »

As per above.

Here you go....

DWP statistics show that as of February 2015, just over 5 million people were claiming welfare benefits; of those, about 370,000 (7.2 per cent) were non-UK nationals (at the time that they registered for a National Insurance number; and of those, only 114,000 (2.2 percent of the total) were EU nationals. Since those born abroad make up 16 percent of the working age population, and those born in the EU make up about 6 percent, it can be seen that migrants of both types are considerably less likely to claim out-of-work benefits.

And...

if we look at only EU migrants claiming in-work tax credits and child tax credits - probably the most "expensive" group - this proportion goes up to about 1 in 10

http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/migrants-benefits-and-uks-renegotiation-questions-and-answers-updated#.V8ivrZOANBf

So given 'about 9 in 10' do not claim in work tax credits, I'd be interested to understand why either of you think the facts even remotely support any assertion that tax credits are common for EU migrants?

John_Lilburne_2911

Doshwaster wrote: »

If the system allows (and even encourages) them to claim in-work benefits then you can't blame them for doing so.

Even when we are out of the EU and FOM presumably ends, these low pay, low skill jobs will still need doing. There aren't enough unemployed people in the South East to do these jobs so they will have to come from somewhere.

Technology is moving fast and in the SE there are agricultural companies who are moving towards more automation and we already have computerised weeding machines that wil do the work of 30 people. Before we had FOM we had a work visa system that worked well and in seasonal work this is the way to go. Also if you look at tourism ,much of that industry is seasonal so coastal resorts, Museums,theme parks ,coffee shops etc etc etc are all seasonal . If you have ever been to Great Yarmouth in the off season its pretty dead. Why pay people to sit around for 6 months of the year costing the country money when you can give them work visas to come for the season.

We obviously couldn't do that for the NHS for example but some industries its the way to go.

John_Lilburne_2911

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Here you go....



And...



http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/migrants-benefits-and-uks-renegotiation-questions-and-answers-updated#.V8ivrZOANBf

So given 'about 9 in 10' do not claim in work tax credits, I'd be interested to understand why either of you think the facts even remotely support any assertion that tax credits are common for EU migrants?

But the data is nearly 3 years old so the claim may be accurate for Q1 2014 but has it changed since?.

Noy sure I can make it any easier to understand.

If you do your research you will find that the majority of the 2004 accession countries migrants tend to work in the "Blue collar " industries of manufacturing and the service industries which tend to attracts lower pay.

I'm not being antagonistsic just posting the fact. I'm happy to post a link when I'm awarded my "post links" badge.:)

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

John_Lilburne_2911 wrote: »

the data is nearly 3 years old so the claim may be accurate for Q1 2014 but has it changed since?.

Come back in 3 years and let us know....;)