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On-grid domestic battery storage

edited 30 November -1 at 1:00AM in Green & Ethical MoneySaving
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  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    This weeks Carbon Commentary newsletter has a couple of items on battery storage that (partially) relate to today's chat. Maybe we shouldn't wait for cheap batt prices, but subsidised batts:-
    3, 'Virtual Power Plants'. Another interesting plan to use batteries to avoid a grid upgrade. The utility covering Lebanon, a small New Hampshire town, is offering to subsidise household batteries for 300 homes. The aim is to avoid a $0.6m substation improvement cost but, more importantly, to reduce the need to import power into the area at times of high prices. The utility will be able to control the batteries during such periods. The supplier also wants to switch to a ‘time of use’ tariff for its battery-equipped homes, promising the owners savings of $500 a year. I suspect that this type of arrangement will become conventional: the utility will control the home battery and use this control to hold down demand peaks or to deal with unexpected grid events. The homeowner will see lowered bills if she transfers most electricity use to the cheaper hours of the day.

    4, Batteries and grid reliability. The world’s largest battery, at Hornsdale in South Australia, has proved its value in its first months of operation. The Australian grid operator released a report saying that the 129 MWh Tesla battery ‘can provide a range of valuable power system services and including rapid, accurate frequency response and control’. It also stated that the unit ‘is capable of responding more rapidly to a contingency event than conventional synchronous generation’. The grid operator concludes that batteries should be rewarded more generously than other forms of electricity supply because of their greater responsiveness.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    orrery wrote: »
    Longer term, the Grid scale batteries are likely to be a different technology - Flow Batteries.

    I've thought the same. Lithium has pulled ahead a bit lately, but flow batts look really promising if costs come down with higher production.

    There's a news article just today pointing out the longer life expectancy of Flow batts, and the fact they can be abused by using their full capacity, without harm:

    “The Future of Energy is Here” Panel Highlights Vanadium Flow Batteries
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • NigeWickNigeWick Forumite
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    zeupater wrote: »
    I expect the home battery system market to remain very slow until fully installed prices fall below £150/kWh and growth to accelerate quickly as prices approach £100/kWh.
    I think you're probably correct. I can afford to be an early adopter so I'm doing it.

    Powerwall 2 is costing me £5,000 plus VAT and installation. If one has just the battery, VAT is 20%. But, if included as part of a system, it's 5%. Therefore I'm having a couple of 300W Panels and inverter etc fitted with the battery for the same cost as just having the battery.

    I haven't even tried to work out the sums, but, I can afford to pay outright and know that I'll have cheap electricity no matter what time of year as spring to autumn it will mainly be solar and in winter I can save Economy 7 to use during the day when the solar isn't enough.

    And, when Tesla gets a grip (later this year?), I will be able to disconnect from the grid in the unlikely event of a power cut.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
  • edited 6 May 2018 at 5:40PM
    Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    edited 6 May 2018 at 5:40PM
    Just went into the Tesla site to show Wifey what the Model 3 looks like, well one can dream, and then drifted to the energy / Powerwall section for a quick look.

    Whilst eyeing up the Powerwall II it dawned on me just how thin it is, so looked at the specs for some numbers, and saw it was 155mm for D for depth under dimensions.

    My brain quickly pointed out to me that that's just over 6 inches.

    Then noticed that the image had metric and imperial figures already on it ...... but ...... none of them match!

    The height (or length) is out by over an inch, or 32.4mm to be pedantic.

    Given Tesla's reputation for attention to detail, I can't help wondering if this is test/trick?

    Reminds me of a holiday booking a couple of decades back. We were getting the tickets from the lovely lady in the high street store, when she told us our luggage allowance was two suitcases each of 20kg or 40lbs. I asked which was it, 20kg or 40lbs, and Wifey (to be) kicked me. :silenced:
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • NigeWickNigeWick Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Just went into the Tesla site
    My PW2 is up and running nicely. The electrician had trouble commissioning it as the wireless wouldn't connect with my system. He ended up putting in a D-Link and states he will do that as a matter of course in future as he spent four hours trying at first.

    My solar system is now 4.6kW with the addition of the two 300W panels. At present, the only time we're sucking mains is when showering as it is 9kW and it's too early in the morning for the solar to add it's full load to the 5kW the battery can push out. The last few days, we've only used 2% from the grid.

    Saturday the solar filled the PW2, heated the water, did some washing, cooked everything we wanted and whacked some 14.5kWh into the car.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    A little bit of Sonnen news. If they keep expanding and prices fall, then some Tesla competition and hopefully some lowering of prices, but don't hold your breath, could be a few years.

    Shell & Others Invest $70 Million Into Sonnen
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Just went into the Tesla site to show Wifey what the Model 3 looks like, well one can dream, and then drifted to the energy / Powerwall section for a quick look.

    Whilst eyeing up the Powerwall II it dawned on me just how thin it is, so looked at the specs for some numbers, and saw it was 155mm for D for depth under dimensions.

    My brain quickly pointed out to me that that's just over 6 inches.

    Then noticed that the image had metric and imperial figures already on it ...... but ...... none of them match!

    The height (or length) is out by over an inch, or 32.4mm to be pedantic.

    Given Tesla's reputation for attention to detail, I can't help wondering if this is test/trick?

    Reminds me of a holiday booking a couple of decades back. We were getting the tickets from the lovely lady in the high street store, when she told us our luggage allowance was two suitcases each of 20kg or 40lbs. I asked which was it, 20kg or 40lbs, and Wifey (to be) kicked me. :silenced:

    Well no reply from Tesla (so much for an upto 48hr response), and the specs haven't changed.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    Great article looking at the economics of home batts with solar.

    It's all about Australia, but the theory still works, and the article suggests that the Aussie market is close to viable, which will push up demand (and supply), which in turn should increase supply and reduce prices.

    Still years to go for us I fear, but at least it is happening, and gathering speed.

    The first graph is promising, showing the falling cost of battery systems. Not bad for less than a year.

    Home Battery Storage In Australia: Are We There Yet?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Well no reply from Tesla (so much for an upto 48hr response), and the specs haven't changed.

    Got an apology from Tesla stating that the issue of metric v's imperial dimensions has been passed up (again) eg 5.5" = 155mm. And today on checking the site, the metric dimensions have all changed (imperial remain the same) and they match, eg 5.5" = 140mm, hooray.

    No e-mail or thanks though, oh well, I could mock the 'Muricans' for struggling with metric but Elon industries has taught a rocket to fly backwards and thus reduced the cost of space launches massively, so I suspect they know what they are doing, when it really matters. :D
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
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    Some news just regarding the market and the direction it will probably go in. This is one of the items in the week's Carbon Commentary newsletter from Chris Goodall:
    Item 1, Behind-the-meter batteries. A small New Hampshire utility wants to sell or rent 1,000 Tesla batteries to its customers to avoid the need to upgrade a distribution link. The grid work would have resulted in costs to customers of around $700,000 a year ($700 a battery). Customers will benefit from being able to shuffle their electricity use between high and low cost portions of the day. The utility will also save money by taking control of the batteries at times when it needs to adjust power demand.

    In twenty years’ time, this will be the pattern worldwide: batteries will be provided by utilities or third parties who will offer ways the residential customer can save money but will retain final control over whether the battery is charging or discharging at any particular moment. There’s much still to be worked out, but some variant of the New Hampshire scheme will become universal.

    I took the liberty of splitting the item in half, as the second part is clearly Chris' opinion, however, it seems like a reasonably fair opinion, I think?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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