Moving on from being sacked for gross misconduct: Applying for work.

ScorpiondeRooftrouser

Mr.Generous wrote: »

ok so imagine if they had the user name and password, or it was saved on the system, the IT team might be able to trace whose log on and which pc was used.

I get the impression that they know what details were used to attempt to access online banking. Note ATTEMPT - we don't know that the attempt to access it succeeded; and the normal inference would be that if it was just an attempt, it didn't. So that won't help.

They know which PC was used, it was his. However the account logged into that PC at the time was a generic one that anyone can access. So there's no question of him leaving the PC logged on and accessible; anyone in the office could have turned it on and used it.

The logical thing to ask them to do would be to identify when the attempt was made. If it was outside his normal working hours, at lunchtime or when he can show he was in a meeting then obviously he has a much better case. If it was at a time when he was normally at his desk then you are asking people to believe a scenario where somebody takes advantage of him being away for five minutes getting a coffee to try and access the company's bank account. Not impossible, but a much harder sell. And could be deemed sufficiently unlikely to act against him on the balance of probability.

Strider590

Did this employer have any experts in IT who could present solid evidence of this misconduct?

I say this because with my 2nd from last employer, my manager and other people kept accusing me of creating a software program that did my job for me (because I was MUCH faster than everyone else), this was a total lie, the fact was I used standard keyboard shortcuts to reduce the time I spend going between windows in MS Access, but because none of them knew what they were talking about, me explaining myself just made them more convinced I was doing something dodgy.

They were apparently surprised that I didn't want share this knowledge, well if they stopped persecuting me everytime I tried then I might have considered it...............

My manager passed the order to physically remove the CTRL and ALT keys from every keyboard in the building to stop people using shortcuts, an order which went down incredibly well the next morning when nobody could login.

A few weeks went by and my manager tried to set me up to commit a gross misconduct by gaining access to a "child locked" (because even a 7 year old could bypass it) area of the database and then tried to get me fired for it, only I'd voice recorded the moron telling me to do it, which I played in the hearing

They then went through my PC looking for anything they could use against me, found a startup batch file that I used to open my email and database first thing in the morning and said this was an attempt to hack the IT systems, queue suspension and another disciplinary 2 weeks later where I respectfully told them to go forth and multiply.


Basically if they don't have an expert onsite, an expert who can't be swayed by internal politics, they make up what they like and you have no chance.

In the case of OP there could be a million explanations, his employer has likely gone crazy without really knowing or understanding the facts. For example it could be something as simple as an ad for this bank appeared on a webpage, leaving a trail on the server logs showing that PC had accessed that domain.

In the past i've heard stories where there have been attempts to sack people for viewing !!!!!! at work, simply because the network firewall/filter logged a rogue popup ad.

Like I said, most people don't know enough to make judgement on these things and even at an employment tribunal do you think the people involved in that will be experts? No, they'll be regular people with the same preconceptions/misconceptions as everybody else.

Undervalued

Strider590 wrote: »

Did this employer have any experts in IT who could present solid evidence of this misconduct?

I say this because with my 2nd from last employer, my manager and other people kept accusing me of creating a software program that did my job for me (because I was MUCH faster than everyone else), this was a total lie, the fact was I used standard keyboard shortcuts to reduce the time I spend going between windows in MS Access, but because none of them knew what they were talking about, me explaining myself just made them more convinced I was doing something dodgy.

They were apparently surprised that I didn't want share this knowledge, well if they stopped persecuting me everytime I tried then I might have considered it...............

My manager passed the order to physically remove the CTRL and ALT keys from every keyboard in the building to stop people using shortcuts, an order which went down incredibly well the next morning when nobody could login.

A few weeks went by and my manager tried to set me up to commit a gross misconduct by gaining access to a "child locked" (because even a 7 year old could bypass it) area of the database and then tried to get me fired for it, only I'd voice recorded the moron telling me to do it, which I played in the hearing

They then went through my PC looking for anything they could use against me, found a startup batch file that I used to open my email and database first thing in the morning and said this was an attempt to hack the IT systems, queue suspension and another disciplinary 2 weeks later where I respectfully told them to go **** themselves.

Basically if they don't have an expert onsite, an expert who can't be swayed by internal politics, they make up what they like and you have no chance.

Legally an employer does not need "solid evidence", only a reasonable belief that the misconduct took place.

Plenty of unfair dismissal claims have been lost despite having "solid" evidence that the misconduct did not take place. All that matter is whether the employer had a reasonable belief at the time.

Strider590

Undervalued wrote: »

Legally an employer does not need "solid evidence", only a reasonable belief that the misconduct took place.

Plenty of unfair dismissal claims have been lost despite having "solid" evidence that the misconduct did not take place. All that matter is whether the employer had a reasonable belief at the time.

Might want to requote that, I added some stuff

But, this is the problem, most people don't have the knowledge to pass that judgement and most people are completely paranoid about the wrong elements of IT, they make up half truths based on badly presented information from the media scaremongers.

Take BBC Watchdog last week, regarding ISPs and broadband speed, they were banging on about WiFi connection when this is NOT your ISPs problem, they supply the connection to your home, the WiFi issues are down to the home owner to sort out, and you've got people complaining about low bandwidth over WiFi, well the bandwidth of standard ISP WiFi is in most cases slower than the internet connection, that's what you get for using WiFi.
I was shocked at BBC Watchdog for this poor reporting and i'd bet thousands of IT experts up and down the country were shouting at their TVs watching it.

In cases such as OP, nothing should be done without proper expert evaluation/investigation, because most people are not qualified to make that judgement.

steampowered

daytona0 wrote: »

Indeed, but the question of "why did you leave your last job" will no doubt come up

In this scenario, the Op is leaving an admin job to try and become a lawyer.

It would be a bit strange for a law firm to ask why the Op left an admin job. I think the Op is more likely to be asked "Why do you want to become a lawyer?"

Undervalued

Strider590 wrote: »

Might want to requote that, I added some stuff

But, this is the problem, most people don't have the knowledge to pass that judgement and most people are completely paranoid about the wrong elements of IT, they make up half truths based on badly presented information from the media scaremongers.

Take BBC Watchdog last week, regarding ISPs and broadband speed, they were banging on about WiFi connection when this is NOT your ISPs problem, they supply the connection to your home, the WiFi issues are down to the home owner to sort out, and you've got people complaining about low bandwidth over WiFi, well the bandwidth of standard ISP WiFi is in most cases slower than the internet connection, that's what you get for using WiFi.
I was shocked at BBC Watchdog for this poor reporting and i'd bet thousands of IT experts up and down the country were shouting at their TVs watching it.

In cases such as OP, nothing should be done without proper expert evaluation/investigation, because most people are not qualified to make that judgement.

Well that depends on what you mean by "should". Do you mean should in your opinion or should in the eyes of the law?

As I said the employer only needs a reasonable belief. Whether or not they need "proper expert evaluation / investigation" to arrive at that will depend on the circumstances.

Strider590

steampowered wrote: »

In this scenario, the Op is leaving an admin job to try and become a lawyer.

It would be a bit strange for a law firm to ask why the Op left an admin job. I think the Op is more likely to be asked "Why do you want to become a lawyer?"

Most companies will ask why OP left.

"Company wasn't really moving forward, there was a growing culture not conducive to improvement and most of their talented staff were leaving."

OP, next time set a password on your PC and lock it using the Windows key + L, EVERY SINGLE TIME you leave it unattended.

motorguy

These things are quite easily fluffed.


"left the company to pursue a business opportunity with a family member but it got pulled at the last minute"



"had to lend a hand in a family business due to illness of my father / brother / sister, etc, now looking for permanent full time work again"

Have a work colleague give a personal reference if asked, etc, etc.

Gavin83

Strider590 wrote: »

Did this employer have any experts in IT who could present solid evidence of this misconduct?

I say this because with my 2nd from last employer, my manager and other people kept accusing me of creating a software program that did my job for me (because I was MUCH faster than everyone else), this was a total lie, the fact was I used standard keyboard shortcuts to reduce the time I spend going between windows in MS Access, but because none of them knew what they were talking about, me explaining myself just made them more convinced I was doing something dodgy.

Your previous employer sounds like an idiot.

A) Who complains about an employee working too fast?

Surely creating an app to do a part of your job is a good thing as it frees you up to do other stuff? Automation is actively encouraged in my role, I simply wouldn't have enough time to do my work if I didn't automated the regular boring tasks.

Still I wouldn't trust an employer that used Access as their DBMS, that's a good sign they don't know what they're talking about.

motorguy

Strider590 wrote: »

"Company wasn't really moving forward, there was a growing culture not conducive to improvement and most of their talented staff were leaving."

If the person left a job with no obvious job to go to, a response like the one above would raise concerns if I was interviewing.