Has anyone changed their mind about Brexit?

TrickyTree83

Sapphire wrote: »

Any news can be called 'fake news' if you disagree with it, and any 'news' (for any position) can be faked. What do you believe, then?

'Fake news' appears to be the new fall-back 'argument' of remoaners, having failed with the 'you are racist', 'you are stupid' and other cards ad nauseum.

I base my responses on in-depth knowledge of at least two countries that are in the clutches of the EU 'club', having spoken to citizens of those countries in their languages.

No one ever died for the EU.

I can actually echo that being close friends with Latvians, Lithuanians, Bulgarians, Polish, and more. There is little love for the EU, these people have left their countries in search of better paid work because adoption of the Euro pushed the cost of living higher and wages in those countries have not risen at the same pace. The EU has gutted industry in these countries and destroyed jobs. I know this is only anecdotal from a small sample.

Also regarding the poll figures mayonnaise posted, and my rebuttal, look at the figures in the poll for the UK leave vote, look at the other countries. See how they've suffered more at the expense of the EU project than we have in the UK. It's not inconceivable to see a swing to leave as the UK did last year.

Which is why I stated I would be more worried that support is below 50% rather than how low leave was polling.

ukcarper

Sapphire wrote: »

Any news can be called 'fake news' if you disagree with it, and any 'news' (for any position) can be faked. What do you believe, then?

'Fake news' appears to be the new fall-back 'argument' of remoaners, having failed with the 'you are racist', 'you are stupid' and other cards ad nauseum.

I base my responses on in-depth knowledge of at least two countries that are in the clutches of the EU 'club', having spoken to citizens of those countries in their languages.

No one ever died for the EU.

Have you got any proof to back up your claims.

wotsthat

Sapphire wrote: »

Perhaps that's because there has been never been any enthusiasm about the EU in Britain's population, and no desire to be a part of some European superstate (that is turning into a dictatorial empire)?

The flaws, corruption and lack of democracy for citizens of European countries made to join the EU 'club', with absolutely no say, have become all the more visible as they have been exposed in the recent year or so.

Citizens of other countries would dearly love to leave the EU, but those countries have unfortunately become trapped (dependent on Germany economically or bankrupted by it), so this will be difficult for them to do – it will happen, though, eventually, I fear with more trouble to come. There are nations in Europe to which sovereignty is much more important than anything else (ancient nations with long and rich histories and traditions, which know what it is like to lose their freedom).

Are you 100% sure you're not in the slightest bit biased? You mentioned earlier the wealthy have a vested interest in staying in. If just a bit of cash in the bank makes you pro-EU how do you think your families treatment at the hands of the Germans have affected your views on all things to do with Germany.

Trouble to come will only come from madmen looking for differences to cause division. It won't be caused by people looking for similarities and reasons to work together.

Sapphire

wotsthat wrote: »

Are you 100% sure you're not in the slightest bit biased? You mentioned earlier the wealthy have a vested interest in staying in. If just a bit of cash in the bank makes you pro-EU how do you think your families treatment at the hands of the Germans have affected your views on all things to do with Germany.

If I do not trust Germany, it is because of the terrible suffering that country inflicted on my family, several of whom actually died defending it, and the ones who survived being left with deep scarring – both physical and mental, which affected them and their children to a great degree.

Again, this goes even further back, to the partitions of Poland for more than 100 years until the First World War, when Poland liberated itself with great difficulty. People in my family died as a result of that, too – both during that war and during the partitions, when those living under the German (and Russian) empires were severely persecuted.

So, yes, part of my viewpoint does stem from my close contact with those who experienced the above directly. It is something that many Poles feel (they also experienced invasion by the Ottoman Turks, who they kicked out eventually with great difficulty). You may be sure that if the Poles were economically (and militarily) on safe ground (rather than living so much from handouts – really bribes – which is actually not good for the economic progress of any country, since it becomes dependent on the largesse and loses the ability to progress), most would vote leave the EU like a shot.

As I said, no one ever died for the EU. It is an undemocratic and corrupt 'club', as it likes to call itself, sucking the life out of European nations.

The human race is tribal and always will be – to try to pretend that we can all coexist as one great happy family, as the EU bureaucrats would have us believe (for their own vested interests), is absurd (I've also studied archaeology and history). Imposing loss of sovereignty on countries without consulting the citizens is, to me, criminal. We should cooperate and trade with Europeans, and welcome those Europeans who benefit our country economically, but that is it. Our laws and control of borders should be our own.

wotsthat

Sapphire wrote: »

If I do not trust Germany, it is because of the terrible suffering that country inflicted on my family, several of whom actually died defending it, and the ones who survived being left with deep scarring – both physical and mental, which affected them and their children to a great degree.

Again, this goes even further back, to the partitions of Poland for more than 100 years until the First World War, when Poland liberated itself with great difficulty. People in my family died as a result of that, too – both during that war and during the partitions, when those living under the German (and Russian) empires were severely persecuted.

So, yes, part of my viewpoint does stem from my close contact with those who experienced the above directly. It is something that many Poles feel (they also experienced invasion by the Ottoman Turks, who they kicked out eventually with great difficulty). You may be sure if the Poles were economically (and militarily) on safe ground (rather than living so much from handouts – really bribes – which is actually not good for the economic progress of any country, since they become dependent on the largesse and lose the ability to progress), most would vote leave the EU like a shot.

As I said, no one ever died for the EU. It is an undemocratic and corrupt 'club', as it likes to call itself.

That's as I thought. You're not exactly a beacon of impartiality despite highlighting the impartiality of others.

The same thought process means we have idiots throwing stones at each other today because of some battle or other 320 years ago (yes I fully understand the 20th century is relatively recent history).

I'm a member of a few clubs - I generally see it as a positive that I'm not asked to die for my triathlon club.

Herzlos

Sapphire wrote: »

Perhaps that's because there has been never been any enthusiasm about the EU in Britain's population, and no desire to be a part of some European superstate (that is turning into a dictatorial empire)?

You're correct there, the Brits have never really got behind the EU.

The flaws, corruption and lack of democracy for citizens of European countries made to join the EU 'club', with absolutely no say, have become all the more visible as they have been exposed in the recent year or so.

Are you saying that the EU forced some countries to join against their will? Which countries are those? How did they manage that?

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

Are you saying that the EU forced some countries to join against their will? Which countries are those? How did they manage that?

Most countries that joined were taken in by governments which did not seek the consent of their electorate and gave away sovereignty which was not theirs to give away. Like the UK.

Only three countries consulted their electorate about membership.

Herzlos

Ah OK. The joining countries did the joining without consulting the electorate, not the EU forced countries to join without consulting the electorate?

Sapphire

wotsthat wrote: »

That's as I thought. You're not exactly a beacon of impartiality despite highlighting the impartiality of others.

The same thought process means we have idiots throwing stones at each other today because of some battle or other 320 years ago (yes I fully understand the 20th century is relatively recent history).

Absolutely no one is a 'beacon of impartiality'. Everyone's views are shaped by their own background and by history. Those who forget or are ignorant about history have no future.

Thanks for the remark about 'idiots throwing stones at each other'. This is not what happened to my relatives in recent history. But nations being dictated to from above, with the citizens having absolutely no control over what a dictatorship does (where the EU is heading), is generally what causes wars, not prevents them. Democracy certainly has its faults, but it is the best system humans have come up with so far. The nations in the EU are far too diverse and different in character for democracy to ever work in such a construct.

Thrugelmir

Herzlos wrote: »

You're correct there, the Brits have never really got behind the EU.

More than happy with a Common Market all those years ago. I never voted for the imposition of uncontrolled migration by politicians who have zero interest in the real concerns of UK citizens. A flawed concept that has been exposed once the membership grew and grew. Now we are all suffering the consequences.