Ticket from UKPC

helphelphelphelp

I have reread the letter from UKPC and it states there that I 'should have contacted security on site to advise them that my car was being used for a hospital appointment and therefore would not have received a ticket'. So they are admitting it can be done, so there are no financial losses. Is there anywhere in the standards/legally that I can use this to challenge them or should I just go for signage?

I have also sent an email to the chief exec asking for them to intervene (will go for which ever is the easiest path).

Either way, I have not received any official notification stating that if I am using the hospital as a visitor I must advise security. The signs say no staff parking, and of course on that day I was not a staff member but a parent of a child with a hospital appointment.

Coupon-mad

If you are at POPLA stage, just start by building the jigsaw of POPLA appeal points, taking them from 'POPLA Decisions' posts in September where I wrote out some long templates. Do not start reading the entire thread nor get sidetracked by clicking on links from people who won cases earlier. JUST go to the templates. Signage is just ONE of several you can use. Do not rely on one appeal point.

Show us your version before submitting it.

helphelphelphelp

Here is an appeal I have put together from other ones I have found on the POPLA decisions post. Any input much appreciated.

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in relation to ticket reference no …… and would like to appeal to POPLA on the following points as I maintain the vehicle was parked correctly at the time the ticket was issued:

1) Unlawful Penalty Charge

Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage and yet a breach of contract has been alleged for parking in a car park in which I already pay a monthly charge to use, it can only remain a fact that this 'charge' is an attempt at extorting an unlawful charge to impersonate a parking ticket. This is similar to the decisions in several County Court cases such as Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman (2008), also OB Services v Thurlow (review, February 2011), ParkingEye v Smith (Manchester County Court December2011) and UKCPS v Murphy (April 2012) .

The operator could state the letter as an invoice or request for monies, but chooses to use the wording “PARKING CHARGE NOTICE” in an attempt to be deemed an official parking fine similar to what the Police and Council Wardens issue.

The carpark in question is free for the first 30 minutes and £2.40 for the next two hours. The £70 charge is punitive and not any representation of any loss incurred – of which there was none as a monthly amount is taken from my salary to enable the vehicle to be parked on hospital grounds. Indeed, UKPC themselves have advised that I need to inform hospital security if I wish to use the visitor’s spaces whilst displaying a staff permit if I am attending an appointment at the hospital. Therefore this is an action that is allowed by UKPC which does not have them suffer any losses. However, there is no signage in the car park advising of this term to their parking conditions. It is therefore not possible for the consumer to be aware of what action to take if the parking operator is not following BPA regulations and informing drivers of where to park and any consequences for not following their terms and conditions. In conclusion, it is not possible for me to have formed a contract as I was not fully aware of the terms.
The vehicle was parked in a visitor’s space when the charge was issued. I maintain that the vehicle was correctly parked as it was being used to take a child to a hospital appointment, and therefore was not a member of staff at the time the charge was issued.


2) If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

The written authorisation must also set out:

a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement
UKPC has not provided the adjudicator any evidence to show that they have authority to issue charges in line with the BPA Code. The Operators evidence fails to show any of the BPA requirements then the omissions must be interpreted in the way which favours the consumer. I request that you uphold my appeal on this point.
3) Insufficient Signage
Section 18.2 of the BPA guidelines state that entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and that together with signs, drivers must be advised of the terms and conditions for parking. At the entrance to the car park, there is one small sign saying ‘Pay on Foot – see notices in car park for conditions’. This small sign is on the opposite side of the road, not correctly angled for a driver to see, and also at a height that is not easy for the driver to read – and in fact could be deemed impossible to read should a high vehicle be on the other side of the road, blocking all views to this sign from within a vehicle. The car park is via a barrier, and no signs are positioned on or by the barriers prior to entrance.
I contend that the signs and any core parking terms UKPC are relying upon were too small for any driver to see, read or understand. I request that POPLA check the Operator's evidence and signage map/photos on this point and compare the signs to the BPA Code of Practice requirements. I contend that the signs on this land (wording, position, clarity and frequency) do not comply and fail to properly warn/inform the driver of the terms and any consequences for breach, as in the case of Excel Parking Services Ltd v MartinCutts, 2011 and Waltham Forest v Vine [CCRTF 98/1290/B2]

4) Reference to ParkingEye vs Beavis
The Operator has not attempted to relate their case to that of ParkingEye v Beavis, and to therefore justify their charge. It is their responsibility to make their case. As they have not, there is therefore nothing for me to rebut. I contend it is not the assessor’s job to make the case on behalf of the operator.

pappa_golf

helphelphelphelp wrote: »

I have reread the letter from UKPC and it states there that I 'should have contacted security on site to advise them that my car was being used for a hospital appointment and therefore would not have received a ticket'. So they are admitting it can be done, so there are no financial losses. Is there anywhere in the standards/legally that I can use this to challenge them or should I just go for signage?

I have also sent an email to the chief exec asking for them to intervene (will go for which ever is the easiest path).

Either way, I have not received any official notification stating that if I am using the hospital as a visitor I must advise security. The signs say no staff parking, and of course on that day I was not a staff member but a parent of a child with a hospital appointment.

correct , on that day you were a visitor , the signs clearly state NO STAFF , (presumably using their staff permit) , there is a car park designated for staff , however this car park is run separately , and is a pay and display car park .




man walks into Tesco customer services "those sausages that I bought from asda yesterday were off" , Tesco staff "please have a refund from OUR till "


they are two separate car parks , would you park at the "red lion" pub and walk down to the "crown" ?


you were using the hospital as a visitor , used a visitors car park , and tried "flashing" your staff permit to get a "freebee"


first sentence of your appeal


1) Unlawful Penalty Charge

Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage


there was a loss , the cost of parking , because you did not pay for THAT car park


I have a staff permit for my local collage , can I park free of charge in a pay and display at another collage




you did wrong , you tried to get free parking on a car park that you now admit had a sign saying no staff parking

helphelphelphelp

Its all the same car park - (4 levels. 2 for staff and 2 for visitors) but all using the same entrance through the barrier for the car park. I wasnt trying to get something for nothing - I pay every month to park in the car parks (and like this month and next when Im not working, Im still paying for the privilege of parking when Im not using the car parks). My argument is a) I was a visitor, and b) there is an agreement in place where WE CAN park in this area, but the way to park here and not get a ticket is not communicated to staff. So I do feel there is no loss as I have paid for a space.

And it is a pay on exit rather than pay on display, so at the point of issuing the ticket, (and even now) UKPC had suffered no financial loss

pappa_golf

helphelphelphelp wrote: »

Its all the same car park - (4 levels. 2 for staff and 2 for visitors) but all using the same entrance through the barrier for the car park. I wasnt trying to get something for nothing - I pay every month to park in the car parks (and like this month and next when Im not working, Im still paying for the privilege of parking (in the staff car park) when Im not using the car parks). My argument is a) I was a visitor, and b) there is an agreement in place where WE CAN park in this area, but the way to park here and not get a ticket is not communicated to staff. So I do feel there is no loss as I have paid for a space.

And it is a pay on exit rather than pay on display, so at the point of issuing the ticket, (and even now) UKPC had suffered no financial loss

the car parks are run separately , there will be a different payment to the PPC formula , you admit the car park stated NO STAFF , so why try to use the pass from a DIFFERENT car park to park their?


reminds me of 2 sisters , one said to the other , can I borrow your buss pass , yes you can , its paid for and I am not going anywhere , use it !


you will soon have to accept that even tho you had a paid for pass for the staff car park , you parked on a different car park without paying


if you feel that you had the right to park there , then you need to take this up with management , because a judge would rule "no staff" and parking with your staff permit and not paying , is extracting the whatnot.


haven forbid , could you not have Legally parked one floor (or two up?

helphelphelphelp

It was pay on exit, so at the time of me parking there (as a visitor) and the ticket being issued, I was a visitor. I had taken a pass from the barrier rather than use my staff pass. So Im not quite sure how your sisters and their bus passes analogy is even relevant?

Heaven forbid I just wanted to get to the MRI scan to find out how far the cancer had spread around my daughters body and parked in a visitors space because I was a visitor. And forgive me if Im wrong, but I havent committed a criminal offence? I didnt park illegally or is there a law that Im not aware of?

I would define staff as someone who was working. I was officially a visitor. The car park didnt say NO STAFF. It said VISITORS ONLY. I was a visitor. At no time during my visit did I carry out any duties on behalf of my employer

Come back and have this conversation and let me know how your mind functions the day after your child has been diagnosed with cancer. Trust me, trying to work out the finer workings of a parking company was not at the top of my agenda.

pappa_golf

I was officially a visitor. The car park didnt say NO STAFF. It said VISITORS ONLY. I was a visitor. At no time during my visit did I carry out any duties on behalf of my employer




so , knowing that this was a visitors car park , and not applicable for staff , why did you not pay on exit


you say "I had taken a pass from the barrier rather than use my staff pass." why take a visitors pay , and not pay?

The_Deep

Some background reading about this company.

UKPC are former clampers who have been involved in quite a number of sordid scams, for example

Hull Trading Standards took them to court on 15 counts of fraud. UKPC won all but one, but only because they had a better lawyer, a Q.C. If I recall correctly

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=63597

They were bested by a Winchester barrister
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**

They were involved in a large scale scam which resulted in a DVLA suspension

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.html

And then of course there was Tracey Kiss

http://www.tracykiss.com/product-reviews/my-ukpc-parking-charge/

• You never know how far you can go until you go too far.

helphelphelphelp

Because I saw the ticket on my car. Went to security and explained to them what had happened and they said there was nothing they could do. So angry, upset (the cancer had spread in case you were wondering), got in the car and went home, deciding there was no way I was going to pay after getting a ticket (again, dont even try rationalising the thoughts of a parent whose child has just had this diagnosis). Thought not to worry, will explain to UKPC, but seems that they have tunnel vision when trying to explain something to them, and compassion doesnt even enter into the vocabulary of these sharks.

What was the point you mentioned about parking legally? Any chance of clarifying where I broke the law?