VCS Parking Charges (3) - Resulted In County Court Claim Form

KimmyHrunt

Lamilad wrote: »

[


To clarify, you hearing is on or around the 22nd?

You have submitted your WS and a WS from your landlord?

You are now working on your skeleton arguments which you will file and serve with exhibits?

So unless I'm missing something, you're not submitting an amended WS? Your resubmitting the WS's already filed (just in case the court has lost them) and including your skeleton argument and exhibits which you're entitled to do a few days before the hearing.

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you have a problem here. You just need to crack on with your skeleton and get your exhibits in order. The other idea of resubmitting your WS's is that you can now include everything together in a nice, neat, well presented file, with an index sheet and numbered dividers.

Hi Lamilad,

See, this is where i am getting confused here. Am i allowed to submit a skeleton argument to the court as i am the defendant? I assume that VCS have already submitted everything on their half, which is the entire WS and evidence that they have provided?

So basically, i can't change the WS points i have already submitted, but i can expand on them further and add additional points based upon the points they raised in their WS (now as i have seen it)?

What do i refer to this new document i am submitting as? A Skeleton Argument?

I'm resubmitting my WS i included, but with alot more information and evidence this time then?

I just want to make sure i get this right.

Thanks

Lamilad

KimmyHrunt wrote: »

See, this is where i am getting confused here. Am i allowed to submit a skeleton argument to the court as i am the defendant?

Yes

KimmyHrunt wrote: »

I assume that VCS have already submitted everything on their half, which is the entire WS and evidence that they have provided?

Yes, it's highly unlikely they will try to submit anything else now.

KimmyHrunt wrote: »

So basically, i can't change the WS points i have already submitted, but i can expand on them further and add additional points based upon the points they raised in their WS (now as i have seen it)?

You can't change your WS at all. Your skeleton can contain arguments based on your initial defence and WS. e.g. if you said they don't comply with pofa then you can say why they don't, where they fail and why it means they cannot pursue the RK etc. You can say where and why you think they've acted unreasonably or not followed CPR. Most importantly you can - and should - go into all the deficiencies with their WS, pointing out what doesn't make sense, such as the comment about you 'conceding something' Why their points are invalid or irrelevant. Where applicable you reference the exhibit that proves your point. e.g. where you state they don't comply with pofa, you say "to support this point I enclose the protection of freedoms act 2012 (pofa) as exhibit KH1" [/QUOTE]

KimmyHrunt wrote: »

What do i refer to this new document i am submitting as? A Skeleton Argument?

As above

KimmyHrunt wrote: »

I'm resubmitting my WS i included, but with alot more information and evidence this time then?

No! you are resubmitting your WS exactly as it was before. Nothing added, removed or changed. You are ALSO including your skeleton argument and exhibits as separate articles. You can put all the separate docs together in a file but they should be separated by numbered dividers and have an index page at the front.

KimmyHrunt wrote: »

I just want to make sure i get this right.

Thanks

Indeed... you may a little more time than you thought but you need to crack on and get a draft skeleton up here for review.

KimmyHrunt

Lamilad wrote: »

Yes


Yes, it's highly unlikely they will try to submit anything else now.


You can't change your WS at all. Your skeleton can contain arguments based on your initial defence and WS. e.g. if you said they don't comply with pofa then you can say why they don't, where they fail and why it means they cannot pursue the RK etc. You can say where and why you think they've acted unreasonably or not followed CPR. Most importantly you can - and should - go into all the deficiencies with their WS, pointing out what doesn't make sense, such as the comment about you 'conceding something' Why their points are invalid or irrelevant. Where applicable you reference the exhibit that proves your point. e.g. where you state they don't comply with pofa, you say "to support this point I enclose the protection of freedoms act 2012 (pofa) as exhibit KH1"

As above


No! you are resubmitting your WS exactly as it was before. Nothing added, removed or changed. You are ALSO including your skeleton argument and exhibits as separate articles. You can put all the separate docs together in a file but they should be separated by numbered dividers and have an index page at the front.


Indeed... you may a little more time than you thought but you need to crack on and get a draft skeleton up here for review.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Lamilad.

How can i start adding references and evidence in if i cant update the WS to reference these exhibits (as VCS have done in thier WS)? Can this not be re-issued with links to other chapters where further detail/evidence is provided? I will upload a copy of my WS i submitted last week and you will see what i mean.

Coupon-mad

You reference the exhibits in this last document, headed 'skeleton argument'.

Lamilad

I am replying to your PM about pofa compliance via the forum as others may want to expand on my points. I've only referred to para 9.2 as this is all I needed to convince the judge in my cases that they don't comply. Others may refer to other sections where they also don't comply:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g5fh7ozm5j0rk5m/POFA%202012%20REBUTTALS.jpg?dl=0

Lamilad

KimmyHrunt wrote: »

Hi Lamilad,

Are the NTK's you received the same as the ones which i received Do they appear to have changed since?

Thanks for your help here.

No my case involved Excel (VCS sister company) but the rebuttals shown in the linked document specifically deal with the NTK you showed me.

KimmyHrunt

Ahh i see, thanks for your help there!! i have a few more questions to throw out there for yours (and others consideration).

1) They have included pictures of the entire carpark and signage (which is from the start of the month that the alleged contraventions occurred may i add), which include clearly visible registration numbers of all other vehicles. Are they allowed to do that? Is this not going against any other rule?


3) The signs on the outside of the car park state "No parking" yet the ones that they have included in their evidence state "Parking for valid permit holders only". They have based alot of their arguments around reading the signs upon entering the car park, however these signs are confusing as it could lead drivers to believe that you cannot park in the area of land in front of the gated entrance, as there is a large pavement area. I believe this is a good point to include too.

4) The signs in the carpark state that CCTV/ANPR are in place, both to which i know are inaccurate. There are some CCTV cameras on site, however they are fixed to the residential building and are there for building security reasons. The area where i received the PCN's is a totally separate carpark and i'm 95% sure that there is neither CCTV cameras or ANPR.

Should i include those points in my skeleton argument?

Coupon-mad

Lamilad found that Excel obtained his pepipoo forum thread (by whatever means...and I don't think they trawled forums & stumbled across it) but just don't put such stuff in your thread just in case! Lamilad had Excel wave a printout of his forum threads at him in court and life was very difficult because they used it to call him a liar and to suggest contempt of court. They lost of course but it was underhand.

Loadsofchildren123

In cases that are heard outside of the small claims track, it is standard for the court to require Skeleton Arguments to be filed 2 or 3 working days prior to the final hearing.
Just because your order doesn't require one, doesn't mean you can't file one.
The Skeleton is a useful summary for the Judge. Cross refer it to the documents in your bundle by page/tab reference if possible and divide it into headings. You can include case references and legal argument that would not have belonged in a witness statement which is meant to be more factual. On the day use your skeleton as your crib sheet. It is meant to cut down on court time by summarising what you want to say, and often a party will refer to it, check the judge has read it and then say that they have nothing further to add unless the judge has any questions (you may want to add things having heard what the Claimant has to say about their case).
As you are a litigant in person, you would expect the judge to allow a Skeleton if it is served on the day, but not necessarily, so best to get it in a day or 2 in advance if you possibly can.

KimmyHrunt

Thanks everyone.

Ok, so we have FINALLY got a copy of the full lease agreement for the property. This is 23 pages long.

I have looked through it and it contains a detailed map of the residential property, and a confirmed map of the dedicated carpark space.

There are only a few points in regards to parking:

"Not to abandon any vehicle whatsoever on any part of the development and in the event of any breach of this covenant it shall be lawful for the Management Company without prejudice to its rights under this underlease to arrange for the removal of such abandoned vehicle and to recover from the lessee any costs incurred"

"Not to Park any vehicle upon any part of any footpaths or access-ways and not to park on any part of the development any vehicle other than a private currently licensed and roadworthy motor car or motor cycle or van under 35cwt"

Now in regards to the agreement, VCS have an agreement with the management company who are not the named management company named in the lease. The current management company are the 'Corporate Secretary' of the named management company on the lease agreement, which we have found out by using companies house.

There is one point in the lease agreement which i do find questionable:

"To comply with all regulations made by the management company for the preservation of the amenities of the development or for the general convenience of the occupiers of the building (the management company having the power to vary or add to such regulations from time to time as it thinks fit)."

Has anybody got any views/advice on the above? If i use any of these points in my skeleton argument will i have to include the evidence in the pack, do i have to include all pages of the lease agreement i assume, rather than just the appropriate pages? (FYI VCS only included one side of their agreement with the management company in their WS, i know this as i have a full copy direct from the management company).

Thanks in advance.