Request for popla refused despite quoting legislation, what to do now?

Gin_and_Milk

I've had a look at various WS, as I'm still trying to do mine.
For my WS do I use my original defence, expanding on any points wherever possible?

Having looked at my copy of the PCN (again) it states:

Issue time: 09.11
Observed from: N/A N/A

Does anyone know what this means and whether or not it's even relevant?

On my NTK (25/8/16), it doesn't say anything about 'issue time', but it does say 'Time of Contravention 09.11' Is the difference in wording relevant? The PCN says what time it was issued whereas the NTK states the time of contravention. Nowhere is there any mention of how long I was parked there.

Nothing from Gladstones yet, and it will be a while before I hear from the DVLA, but I will mention in my WS the letter to NTK on 25/8/16. It states that 'we may have obtained your details from the DVLA'. At the moment I can't prove this, but I fail to see where else they would have got them from.

Fruitcake

The POFA 2012 states that in order to transfer liability from driver to keeper, the scammers have to abide by very strict requirements.

If the POFA states that the time parked must be put in the NTK, then the parking duration HAS to be entered. If the vehicle was observed from (say) 09.11 to 14.43, then the EXACT duration has to be included, not just the parked from and to times.

The scammers have to meet each and every requirements, so the best thing is to print out the relevant POFA paragraph then go through it line by line to see what bits have been missed from the NTK.

So, POFA para x section y says, parking duration, NTK omits this, thus POFA not complied with.

Do this for every requirement such as "within 14 days if ANPR used" not met, or "between 28 and 56 days if windscreen ticket" not met.

If POFA says the scammers must comply with the ATA's CoP, then any omission should be pointed out. Operative not in uniform, not standing on one leg, not wearing a pink hat. Every single omission needs to be picked out and highlighted as a failure.

I hope this makes sense (I'm trying to download stuff on Mrs F's tablet at the same time.)

Gin_and_Milk

Right, I'm just trawling through POFA now (it makes no sense to me whatsoever).

With regards to the PCN, para 7 (2) (a) 'The notice must specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;'

The vehicle and land are mentioned, but not the period of parking, just the time the PCN was issued.

para 7 (2) (b) 'inform the driver of the requirement to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and describe those charges...'
I'm not entirely sure what this means, but the amount to pay was £1.50 for 2 hours, I was there about 40 mins. What does it mean about 'specified period of parking?

Thanks for this, I'm so close to throwing the towel in and just paying up! I want to get everything sent off by Thursday if possible as the hearing is the 31st and this is not as straightforward as I thought it would be!
Hope Mrs F doesn't mind you breaking off from downloading stuff btw.

Gin_and_Milk

Just to play devil's advocate, on the claim form I received in October, it states that the total amount I owe is £226.88. If I were to contact them now would it still be that amount, or more?

It's not like me to back down from something like this, but I am seriously thinking of paying it off and beating myself up over it. I don't understand a word of anything that I am trawling through, OH is stressed out, I'm stressed out, and as well as working I'm also trying to do my degree in my spare time, so I'm struggling to meet deadlines for that too.

I feel awful about this as I know that many of you, Coupon Mad in particular have invested a lot of your time in supporting me with this and I don't for one minute want you to think I am being ungrateful.

If it is going to be considerably more than the £226.88 I don't know what I'm going to do, I don't even know how much it will cost if I lose, but the stress is just too much, nothing is sinking in and I could be spending my time doing my assignment.

I'm so sorry about all of this but I just don't know what to do and the tempting thing is just to contact Gladstones (or whoever), pay up and put it down to experience.

Sorry again.

Kind_Of_Irritated

Please don't jack it all in, G & M. Coupon-mad and the others on here are so helpful.

But I know what you mean about "trawling through" (POFA) etc and I congratulate you on finding that excerpt. It really can be time, no... life-consuming just to do the research.

I too have a case against Gladstones (& Link) and I won't be letting the bar stewards away with it. I am hearing that they are often cancelling the whole court hearing at the last minute without even informing the defendant (who turns up unaware!) Some others in our position are lining up to make claims against THEM for breaking the rules on this, as well as on everything else.

Try to stick in there and after you win, and you most likely will win, sue the backsides off them for your time (I reckon it's months so far on my part).

Gin_and_Milk

Thanks for that. The reason I feel bad about it is because I've had so much help and I don't want people to think I'm throwing it back in their faces, but it's just too much. If it works out cheaper to go to court and lose then I could submit a sloppy defence etc with a view to losing. It's going to be a struggle to get everything in on time anyway.

Backing down has never been one of my strong points, nor will it ever be but I just don't know what to do.

I hope you win your case, though and I really do wish you the very best of luck with it.

Thanks for your kind message. It really does mean a lot :-)

Kind_Of_Irritated

Have you sent them any witness statements yet? From my understanding (and I don't have a case date yet, but I expect one soon) as long as you have mentioned in your original defence the points you will expand on on the day, you still have time to get it together. I'm sure Fruitcake and other experts on here can come in and give you some quick advice with your deadline in mind.

I also have your point on "charge" time period as part of my defence. I was given no period of time on my "ticket" either, just a time. And all the 5 pictures they took were taken in the space of less than a minute and then they scarpered.

I have noticed that even if the bar stewards win judges seldom allow them the inflated amount they ask for. I'm pretty sure, from my research that it won't be more than they're asking for and will likely be considerably less.

Good luck back to you too, and thanks for your best wishes.

Gin_and_Milk

I sent a defence in November (I think), but I didn't seem to need to trawl through so much then as I do now. I think I've hit a brick wall.

I just sit at the table with everything i need (apart from my brain), and then I just don't know where to start. I've been sat for about 5 hours this evening and I have nothing to show for it.

Maybe I should sleep on it and see how I feel in the morning.

Thanks for the pep talk, you've really helped ☺

Coupon-mad

If it is going to be considerably more than the £226.88 I don't know what I'm going to do, I don't even know how much it will cost if I lose.

About the same or less. And I say 'less' because even if the Judge thinks the parking charge itself is enforceable, one important snippet from para 1 - 8 of Schedule 4 is that the only sum that can be recovered from the keeper is the sum on the NTK (the only add-ons being interest and court fees).

Not random admin or 'indemnity' costs not set out when the car was parked, as they were not incorporated into any contract and such costs (if they even genuinely exist) relate only to a minor percentage of cases and are already easily covered by the £100 'parking charge'. The POFA even warns that it does not allow 'double recovery'.

You are looking far too closely at Schedule 4. Didn't I say just look at 8(2)f and the statement about 28 days? Even that might be deemed OK according to the Judge, so don't hang your hat on that. POFA Sch4 also requires 'adequate notice' of the parking charge (signage comes in here, far better that you argue that there was no adequate notice and the machines were at fault/font on signage meant the parking charge was never 'agreed').

You can bring a printed out version of the 'Beavis case' sign as evidence too, all being filed in advance with your Witness Statement which does not have to restate your defence (you can refer to your defence but no need to make it longer).

Here is the Beavis sign, large lettering, few words, very brief and prominent:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eYdphoIIDgE/VpbCpfSTaiI/AAAAAAAAE10/5uFjL528DgU/s1600/Parking%2Bsign_001.jpg

And you said:

tried to buy a ticket at the time but was unable to do so because of their machines

So that's another issue, as well as the signs. physical things like that are, on balance, more likely to win at a hearing IMHO, going by other cases won.


Also near the start of the thread this was pointed out:

In addition to this, you should also challenge their statement that:

"Please also be advised that whilst I note you remarks referring to your correspondence as an Appeal, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 states that you are permitted 28-days in which to Appeal this Notice, as this timescale has lapsed, I must advise you that this communication will not be recognised as an Appeal."

Tell them that this is at best a genuine mistake, and at worst a blatant lie.

Indeed. You can challenge their rep to point to the place in Schedule 4 which states that? It does not even mention appeals, in fact, but this law does and your appeal was right to ask for ADR:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1392/pdfs/uksi_20151392_en.pdf

You only need regulation 19(2) on page 4: a tiny bit of law to read:

“Consumer information by traders
19.—(2) Where a trader has exhausted its internal complaint handling procedure when considering a complaint from a consumer relating to a sales contract or a service contract, the trader must inform the consumer, on a durable medium—
(a) that the trader cannot settle the complaint with the consumer;
(b) of the name and website address of an ADR entity or EU listed body that would be competent to deal with the complaint; and
(c) whether the trader is obliged, or prepared, to submit to an alternative dispute
resolution procedure operated by an ADR entity or EU listed body.
(3) The trader information requirements set out in paragraphs (1) and (2) apply in
addition to any information requirements applicable to traders regarding out-of-court redress procedures contained in any other enactment.”

And the BPA said in 2014:

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/alternative_dispute_resolution_consultation_response.pdf


ADR in the parking profession

''We support the principles of the EU Directive on alternative dispute resolution for consumers. We have a Master Plan objective that says “Everyone should have the right of appeal against parking enforcement”.

And...MB refused that right.

Further, the BPA's current Code of Practice says:

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/BPA_Code_of_Practice_-_October_2015_-_Version_6.pdf

''22.12 If you reject an appeal you must:
• tell the motorist how to make an appeal to POPLA.
This includes providing a template ‘notice of appeal’
form or a link to the appropriate website for lodging
an appeal and a valid 10-digit verification code. Even
if the verification code is automatically printed on an
enclosed appeal form, it must still be in a prominent
position on the first page of the rejection letter.
• give the motorist a reasonable amount of time to pay
the charge before restarting the collection process.
We recommend that you allow at least 35 days from
the date you rejected the challenge.
22.12.1 Within all Appeal Rejection Letters, and in order to
comply with the EU ADR Directive, the following wording
should be used;
• You have now reached the end of our internal appeals
procedure. [Insert standard operator text to appeal
to POPLA, including 28 day time limit for doing so,
the POPLA verification code and the POPLA website
address]
• By law we are also required to inform you that
Ombudsman Services (https://www.ombudsman-services.
org/) provides an alternative dispute resolution
service that would be competent to deal with your
appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate
in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such
should you wish to appeal then you must do so to
POPLA, as explained above.''


The 4% surcharge for card payments is also unlawful, so much of this is up for challenge. Yes, you may as well fight and attend the hearing, knowing you will either win or lose, it will all be over and not at any huge cost, no CCJ, nothing. You don't even have to sit on the naughty step!

Kind_Of_Irritated

I think it is scandalous what these rogue ex-clampers and lawyers put people through. It really needs to be stamped on. And they need to pay through the nose for it. Disgraceful skunks. :mad:

Yes, just sleep on it and I'm sure the experts will be back on here soon with some shortcuts. They'll help you knock down that wall!

Btw, do you follow Parking Prankster's website? If not, just google it. He is great for the latest updates and lessons to learn in our cases. :beer: