Natural Burial

mumps

lessonlearned wrote: »

Your last sentence is interesting.

Funerals, just like christenings and weddings, whether religious or not, are indeed a form of "theatre".

And yes, they do need "producing"...... it can feel like you are planning a military campaign......especially when there are lot of older family members who want to attend and have their own health needs. In mums case we also had the Belgian contingent to house and feed for the duration. It took some organising.

My father tried to go against my mother's wishes. My sister and I stood firm and made sure that her wishes were respected.

He wanted a full catholic funeral and mass, followed by a burial. My mother said under no circumstances did she want to be buried and she was emphatic she wanted "no priests thank you very much"

We compromised. She had the "Last Rites" to appease my dad, although I felt uneasy because I knew she wouldn't have wanted it. I felt it was very wrong to go against her wishes, especially as she was still alive. I think my father was really out of order on that one but my sister and I gave in.

However, we did hold our ground about the funeral and we gave her a humanist funeral. The female celebrant was lovely, my mum would have liked her.

We set up a screen and showed a montage of photos and movie clips of her life set to one of her favourite pieces of music. I had done this for my husband and my sister said did I mind if we did this for mum too.

My father complained afterwards that is was "too show bizzy". And yet everyone else said both my husband's and my mums funerals were perfect because they reflected the person. They had all enjoyed seeing their lives unfold on the screen, especially the nursing home staff who had only known them when they were sick and frail.

Both my husband and my mother were outgoing and gregarious, real party animals - so it seemed right to celebrate their lives with stories, music they loved and in mums case, lots of flowers.

I knew that both my husband and my mother would have wanted the whole "gathering of the clans, drink to their health and let's remember the good times" so that's what we gave them.

We know that dad wants a simple no fuss funeral so that's what we will give him. Whether or not he still wants the whole Catholic Mass we have yet to discuss.

It's ironic though - although dad doesn't see the irony - but in its way the whole Catholic thing is just as "showy". However, if that's what he wants then that's what we will give him.

My father had a distinguished military career - he was quite the war hero and I would like to incorporate that into his funeral. He still fund raises for SSAFA so I will contact them when the time comes and see if one of their people wants to make an address.

Barry Blue - I was astonished to find that eco friendly coffins were susbstantially more expensive than the budget range of more mainstream coffins.

Just edited to add......in case this might be of help.

SSAFA can be a great help both to old soldiers who are still alive and experiencing distress and also their widows.

I have known a couple of cases where they have stepped in to help old soldiers who have died destitute and with no family. In one case in particular rather than seeing an old war hero have a paupers burial they provided a simple dignified ceremony attended by a couple of their people.

As I said my dad still fund raises for them and I have met a couple of their people. One of their representatives attended mums funeral.

It is hard isn't it. You wanted to honour your mother's wishes and yet your father's wishes weren't considered and he had spent how long with her? 60 years maybe? You see I would look at him and think of his feelings, as I said I do think funerals are for the living.

I would have thought your father would have had the final say on the funeral, he would be regarded as the next of kin I assume?

I don't think there is an easy answer, probably not a right answer, all we can do is what we think is right. You put your mother first and I would have put your father first, it has to be a personal decision.

Maybe because I am a Catholic I can sympathise with your father's view. To me a Catholic funeral isn't showy in the way your father thought your mother's funeral was, that isn't to say one is better than the other just that your father and I would probably make similar choices.

I'm from an Irish family so although I don't drink I do think a wake is a great thing. I remember my mother's funeral as a very positive event, lots of people who loved her sitting round eating and drinking and sharing memories. I have never been to a wake with so much laughter. Some people might think that is disrespectful but it just right for us. There was no feeling of it being "produced" it felt relaxed and natural.

ThemeOne

My mother had a natural burial some years ago. It means she's buried quite far from everyone's homes, in a remote place with no access except by car, and no memorial stones or anything to mark the grave are allowed.

Although I visited a few times since her death, to be honest, I no longer recall exactly where she's buried since it's a large area and one wooded path looks much like another.

I'm not saying it would be like this for everyone - maybe there's a natural burial ground closer at hand, or which allows some sorts of memorial - but it is worth thinking how a natural burial impacts those left behind.

lessonlearned

Mumps.....

Whilst I understand that for the bereaved a funeral is a "rite of passage" and a chance to say goodbye, funerals are not purely for the living. The deceased may no longer be around but they still have a right to determine what happens to their remains and how they want to say their goodbyes.

If they have the right to make a will and stipulate what happens to their possessions then dont they also have the right to say what happens to their own person.

My mother was a lapsed Catholic, and had become a non believer. She did not want a Catholic service. She made her wishes known. She was emphatic. No priests. She really could not have made her wishes any clearer.

My father has every right to a Catholic service if that's what he wants, although as he is non practising and hasn't darkened a church door for the last 50 years then it could be argued that he has no "right" to a catholic funeral. However if that is his express wish then my sister and I will honour that and ensure that we give him the kind of service he has asked for, assuming of course that the church is in agreement. They could refuse.

However, he had no right to impose his religious beliefs on his wife, no matter how long they had been married. No one has that right.

Therefore he most certainly should not have had the final say in my mums funeral. My mother had every right to have the final say over what happened to her own body, not him, not me, not my sister, not anyone else.

And my sister and I, knowing my mother's wishes, would have been guilty of a dereliction of our duty as daughters if we had not protected her rights and respected her wishes.

You say I should have considered my father's feelings. What makes you think my sister and I didn't. Of course we did. We were distressed at having to take a stand against him, especially when his grief was so raw and fresh, but, in all conscience, we could not just ignore mums express wishes.

You might think we were wrong, but betraying mum would have been far worse.

That was 18 months ago. My father has "moved on" as they say. He now accepts that my sister and I were right to follow our consciences and has said that he now realises that he was wrong to try and assert his own beliefs over mums wishes.

He has even apologised for what he called "overstepping the mark" and causing "unnecessary distress".

He got it in the end.

He truly meant well at the time and thought he was doing the right thing but he now says he was misguided and actually feels guilty for the fuss he caused.

Poor man.

seven-day-weekend

I think it must be for the person themselves to decide and if it is that they want their family to do as they please, then that is fine. However, some feel quite strongly what they want, and if they have expressed those wishes, then I think that should be respected.

My husband and I don't want cremation, we never have. We want a natural woodland burial becaiuse we like the fact that we will be nourishing a tree and encouraging natural flora and fauna. We don't like 'manicured' gardens, we never have. Our gardens have always been havens for wildlife, so whilst being pretty, we have endeavoured to have native plants in and also to let things self-seed. If something self-seeds in the middle of the lawn, or somewhere else it shouldn't be, we just pull it up, but otherwise we let the garden go its own way. This is how we want our final garden to be.

The natural and ecological element of a green burial is why we wanted it. I think it should be our choice and our final wishes should be respected..

However, each to their own and some may decide that it should be the family's choice.

That's my take anyway.

seven-day-weekend

The other point of view (that it is for the next of kin to decide), has some validity for me however, since my previous neighbour's husband died.

He had converted to Islam a few days before he died. Because of this, none of his female relatives, including his wife and five daughters, were allowed to attend the funeral. His one daughter is also a recent convert, so she accepted it; however his other daughters were devastated.

He had every right to convert to Islam, but to me it seems a shame that his loved ones could not say goodbye to him properly.

So.....maybe there is merit in both views.

(We will have a Christian celebration of life service in whatever church we are connected with at the time. Then the internment at the woodland. It's about two miles from where we live).

lessonlearned

I do like the idea of a natural burial - if a burial is what has been decided upon.

Ashes can also be used to "fertilise" the ground too. Sorry if that's a bit too graphic:rotfl:

Near us is a heritage wood where you can plant a tree and then place the deceased's ashes around it. You can also have a name plaque, so it does give those left behind a place to visit and pay respects.

It's certainly an interesting subject. Nowadays there appears to be a range of options, more so than in days of yore.

SDW. There is always merit in more than one viewpoint.

As we can see what works for one individual may not work for everyone. And quite rightly so, especially in respect of both religious belief and secular convictions. It is up to each and every individual, there should be no coercion.

Each of us deserves to have our wishes respected and no one has the right to ride roughshod over our express instructions. No matter how well meaning the intentions it can never be right to try and overturn the deceased's decisions or requests.

mumps

lessonlearned wrote: »

Mumps.....

Whilst I understand that for the bereaved a funeral is a "rite of passage" and a chance to say goodbye, funerals are not purely for the living. The deceased may no longer be around but they still have a right to determine what happens to their remains and how they want to say their goodbyes.

If they have the right to make a will and stipulate what happens to their possessions then dont they also have the right to say what happens to their own person.

My mother was a lapsed Catholic, and had become a non believer. She did not want a Catholic service. She made her wishes known. She was emphatic. No priests. She really could not have made her wishes any clearer.

My father has every right to a Catholic service if that's what he wants, although as he is non practising and hasn't darkened a church door for the last 50 years then it could be argued that he has no "right" to a catholic funeral. However if that is his express wish then my sister and I will honour that and ensure that we give him the kind of service he has asked for, assuming of course that the church is in agreement. They could refuse.

However, he had no right to impose his religious beliefs on his wife, no matter how long they had been married. No one has that right.

Therefore he most certainly should not have had the final say in my mums funeral. My mother had every right to have the final say over what happened to her own body, not him, not me, not my sister, not anyone else.

And my sister and I, knowing my mother's wishes, would have been guilty of a dereliction of our duty as daughters if we had not protected her rights and respected her wishes.

You say I should have considered my father's feelings. What makes you think my sister and I didn't. Of course we did. We were distressed at having to take a stand against him, especially when his grief was so raw and fresh, but, in all conscience, we could not just ignore mums express wishes.

You might think we were wrong, but betraying mum would have been far worse.

That was 18 months ago. My father has "moved on" as they say. He now accepts that my sister and I were right to follow our consciences and has said that he now realises that he was wrong to try and assert his own beliefs over mums wishes.

He has even apologised for what he called "overstepping the mark" and causing "unnecessary distress".

He got it in the end.

He truly meant well at the time and thought he was doing the right thing but he now says he was misguided and actually feels guilty for the fuss he caused.

Poor man.

I was really careful not to say who is right and who is wrong. If you want to bring it down to that then fine. I still feel sad for an old man who wasn't allowed to say goodbye to his lifelong partner in the way he wanted.

If my children try to interfere in my decisions if their father dies before me then they will be shown the door. They have their own partners and I am sure they wouldn't welcome me making decisions for them.

seven-day-weekend

mumps wrote: »

I was really careful not to say who is right and who is wrong. If you want to bring it down to that then fine. I still feel sad for an old man who wasn't allowed to say goodbye to his lifelong partner in the way he wanted.

If my children try to interfere in my decisions if their father dies before me then they will be shown the door. They have their own partners and I am sure they wouldn't welcome me making decisions for them.

Yes I agree with that, but surely if your husband had expressed wishes you would carry them out?

Loanranger

A friend had her husband buried in a natural burial ground and she regretted it all. She had the cardboard coffin etc but realised as it was happening that it was not right for her nor for him. But I suppose you don't really know until it's too late.
We went to a humanist funeral recently and it is something we both want for ourselves. It was perfect for a couple of non believers like us.

SailorSam

I think that's a lovely idea. I'm not religious and i don't believe in God, so i don't think we're going up to heaven or anything. Although i know a few who'll be going the other way.
When my Mum died we only went to the Crem and buried her ashes. That was almost 10yrs now and i still go to talk to her. How much nicer it would be if she was buried somewhere natural. As i've said before i carry a donor card and i hope they'll use my body, but if they don't, as much as a natural funeral appeals, i don't think i'd have one. Only because i don't have anyone that would come and sit there, and talk to me.