New employer has rejected holiday

warby68

prowla wrote: »

I think it is perfectly reasonable to request holiday three months in advance.

I would have suggested bringing it up during the interview process, but hindsight is a great thing. I've been asked if I have any holiday plans when being interviewed.

Whilst some companies (eg. retail) don't like employees taking holiday in December, others insist on it (eg. my current employer has an office close-down over the Christmas break), so there is no hard and fast rule.

From the employer's perspective, they may already have people who've booked their holidays, so a new starter might be unlucky.

There is also the question with a new starter as to whether they will have accrued enough leave entitlement pro-rata to cover the requested break (ie. 1/4 of their annual entitlement for 3 months); some companies might be reluctant to have a new employee "borrow" from their expected future days.

As far as employer discretion goes, most contracts even give the employer the right to cancel booked leave, if the need arises, though I've never seen it happen and they might find a sudden increase in sick-days if they did invoke it!

All in all, I would say no crime has been committed here and there's no need for lectures, but the employer is in the right.

I'm lecturing a bit but OP's mindset of 'employer in the wrong' is quite clear and I'm trying to get across that a different mindset will have a better chance of success, both in securing the leave and good working relationships going forward.

Hopefully the person making the decision didn't realise it was pre-booked and will be able to flex.

glentoran99

warby68 wrote: »

I'm lecturing a bit but OP's mindset of 'employer in the wrong' is quite clear and I'm trying to get across that a different mindset will have a better chance of success, both in securing the leave and good working relationships going forward.

Hopefully the person making the decision didn't realise it was pre-booked and will be able to flex.

but as you say it would require a big change in attitude

TELLIT01

livewire_82 wrote: »

..... she is a very capable senior member of staff.

Sorry, but as a 'very capable senior member of staff' I would have expected her to raise the subject of existing holiday commitments at the interview, even if it wasn't raised by the person conducting the interview. I certainly let potential employers know of any leave I had booked during the interview.
It was a failing on the interviewers side too, but that is no help if the application is now being refused. There would seem to be just a couple of options -
1. Take the situation higher to try to get the holiday reinstated.
2. Give up the holiday
3. Leave.

Given that the relationship between your wife and the manager in question has broken down in a matter of hours, it seems unlikely that it will be a positive experience in the future.
As for the amount of notice given of the holiday, it's not really relevant. 3 1/2 months from now is Christmas and New Year and I would expect leave over that period already to have been agreed. Depending on the sector, that can also be an extremely busy time.

Reggie_Rebel

livewire_82 wrote: »

I value all of your replies but I think a number of you misunderstand what I've said. She didn't book time off as soon as she started - she had pre-booked holiday which was booked in January.

Not as far as the new employer was concerned, they went through a recruitment process with opportunity to be made aware of the holiday yet the first they know of it is when an employee whacks in a request for one of the most popular times of the year on their first day.

Undervalued

TELLIT01 wrote: »

Sorry, but as a 'very capable senior member of staff' I would have expected her to raise the subject of existing holiday commitments at the interview, even if it wasn't raised by the person conducting the interview. I certainly let potential employers know of any leave I had booked during the interview.
It was a failing on the interviewers side too, but that is no help if the application is now being refused. There would seem to be just a couple of options -
1. Take the situation higher to try to get the holiday reinstated.
2. Give up the holiday
3. Leave.

Given that the relationship between your wife and the manager in question has broken down in a matter of hours, it seems unlikely that it will be a positive experience in the future.
As for the amount of notice given of the holiday, it's not really relevant. 3 1/2 months from now is Christmas and New Year and I would expect leave over that period already to have been agreed. Depending on the sector, that can also be an extremely busy time.

Exactly.

I'm afraid she has no legal rights to stand on and is entirely at fault for not telling them about the pre booked holiday before she accepted the job. Had she done so most likely they would have agreed but if they didn't she would have had a clear choice of tak the job or take the holiday.

One other point, depending on how long the holiday was to have been she may not have accrued enough holiday by then. Some firms have rules preventing holiday being taken before it is accrued. In three and a half months she will have accrued roughly 7 to 8 days.

SandC

I would have said the employer is only really likely to ask if there are any prebooked holidays if the interview and recruitment is taking place over the summer. Your wife should have brought this up once an offer had been made (ie. ring them as soon as letter received to check this would be okay before accepting the position).

Did she explain that a holiday had been prebooked when she put her request in? If not then she needs to have a chat with the person concerned and apologise for not being clear and try to negotiate it that way. Is this a holiday of a week or two's duration? That is probably what is making all the difference, not a request for a couple of days in December.

There are certainly sections where I work who are not allowed to take holidays during December as it's the busiest time. For my department the same applies in January, except for the odd day if you need to.

sangie595

prowla wrote: »

As far as employer discretion goes, most contracts even give the employer the right to cancel booked leave, if the need arises, though I've never seen it happen and they might find a sudden increase in sick-days if they did invoke it!
.

Actually, the law permits employers to cancel booked leave, so the contract doesn't need to specify it. Stuff happens and whilst rare, it does happen. Most employers would compensate for the loss incurred, if they had no other choice than to cancel.

However, if there was a sudden rise in sick days, I would expect a sudden rise in dismissals to go alongside it! Sickness does not override terms and conditions, and the employer is STILL entitled to refuse you the right to go away whilst off sick. And if you suddenly booked sick leave at a time you had previously booked holidays, I can imagine that a tribunal would come to exactly the same conclusion as the employer did - assuming you didn't make it easy by posting your holiday all over Facebook!

Marktheshark

Sounds like time for another new Job, this time make it clear she is going on Holiday.
It is only a job after all.

sangie595

TELLIT01 wrote: »

Given that the relationship between your wife and the manager in question has broken down in a matter of hours, it seems unlikely that it will be a positive experience in the future.
.

I agree with this. Some of the OP's comments about the manager are quite inappropriate and attribute qualities that are not even speculation - they are grossly unfair and unsupported. As are some of the other posts on here. There is no evidence to say that the manager is jealous or unsupportive or worse. She has refused a request for holidays, and absolutely nobody knows why she did so. So saying that she is a ***** for doing so is ridiculous. And frankly, quite apart from the OP failing to mention pre-booked holiday previously, which at her level of seniority, she should have known to do; what about the whole emailing it in? With something like this it would be courtesy and a better strategy to speak to someone directly. "I was so excited about getting the job I entirely forgot to mention...." might have gone a lot further than a curt "I would like to book holiday..." by email on the first day of work. As a manager, who here would be impressed if a new starters first thought was booking holiday?

It seems, at least from the way that the OP is speaking here, that the relationship is already so far gone in his wife's view that she need to be looking for another job pronto. If she can't see that she bears some responsibility here, then things are not going to get any better.

BJV

I am an employer and I would always ask at an interview. BUT I am human so although I don't think I have forgotten I would be a bit put out if someone asked the very 1st day.

I would expect them to ask after a week or so and then if possible I would try and help. That said there are times of the year ( not school holidays we we have a holiday ban.) but again as part of our interview process we ask about holidays, and special requirements/ health or other things we should know to make sure that they are safe and can do their job.

No your wife is not entitled to an explanation and I would be a bit put out if someone asked me for one. There could be a million reasons no of which your wife has reason to know.

BUT if it was me I would wait a couple of days and have a chat. Your wife is annoyed and it sounds like from the gekko your wife's new boss/supervisor is and this is not a fab way to start a long term business relationship. So perhaps informal chat?