Turning off Contactless

chattychappy

marleyboy wrote: »

How about I am happy using the traditional chip and pin and to recap - its worked well for me upto now.

Feel free to use contactless and leave those of us who dont use it to feel free using chip and pin. Or is that asking too much?

Looks like it is asking too much!!

On the issue of "looking over your shoulder", here's a story. I used to rent an office in a 4 storey building. I moved out but kept in touch with an owner. After I moved out, the office was rented out to 3 posh blokes in suits. One day there was a storm and the roof leaked badly. The owner used a master key to go into the office to check all was OK.

The room was completely empty except for three cameras with high-powered zoom lens looking through the window. They were trained on the ATMs at ground level on the other side of the street. They would capture people's PINs and the guys would mug them as they walked down the street. Many of these people reported the cards stolen but merrily told their banks that the PIN was safe. They weren't believed when later they disputed the transactions. (Until the guys were convicted. Hundreds were affected by this one site alone.)

So - cover your PIN. Just because nobody is looking over your shoulder and the ATM hasn't been fiddled with, doesn't mean you're not being watched.

Every time a PIN is typed in, there is a risk. Whilst you're not responsible for unauthorised transactions (even if you are negligent in the case of CCs), it can be very difficult to dispute a transaction where the PIN was used. With contactless, it is easier.

Oh, and if your card is stolen, it could well be used contactless whether or not you personally use contactless.

Nasqueron

marleyboy wrote: »

How about I am happy using the traditional chip and pin and to recap - its worked well for me upto now.

Feel free to use contactless and leave those of us who dont use it to feel free using chip and pin. Or is that asking too much?

I don't think anyone is saying you can't use chip and pin, people are just pointing out the points you have raised on contactless are unfounded and that the safety you place in chip and pin is not as secure as you think.

techno79

brila wrote: »

Today another customer grabbed my purse off the counter and paid for their purchases with my credit card. I then had a long wait while a supervisor was found to refund my card. I've never used contactless and am a bit shocked as to how easy it was for some random person to use my card. I rang MBNA (the card provider) but they have refused to remove the contactless facility from my card.

1. Am I able to compel them to do this?
2. Are there credit cards about that don't do contactless payments?

I do not have faith in contactless cards as I feel card fraud could happen while someone brushes passed my wallet with dodgy equipment. I prefer chip and pin because they would only be able to skim my card if they had physical access to it.

Anyway, one way to do this is to drill a very very small hole through the contactless antenna. Best and cleanest way to do this is to ring up and request a replacement card as you lost your old one. Then use your old one to identify where the antenna is. You can do this by slowly cutting away bits of the card until you can work out where the antenna is embedded. Then drill a single small hole in the new card. If you make a mistake then you can blag a new card by saying something like, the new card doesn't work properly or saying you lost it again. If you had to drill a couple of holes or it looks a bit messy then you can always try sticking a sticker over the front and back to tidy it up. I did this for a while and never had anyone question things at all.

Alternatively, you could switch to a bank/company that do not issue contactless cards. Tesco Credit Card doesn't have contactless and nor does Nationwide Select Credit Cards.

Nasqueron

techno79 wrote: »

I do not have faith in contactless cards as I feel card fraud could happen while someone brushes passed my wallet with dodgy equipment. I prefer chip and pin because they would only be able to skim my card if they had physical access to it.

.

Nobody can do that, the logistics of it make it borderline impossible as you have to have a retailer account with a bank to get one the terminals and process funds, simply having one will do precisely nothing. The signal can be messed up by keys or other metal objects in the way as well.

Why mess around drilling holes when you can simply use tinfoil or get an RFID blocking wallet for a couple of pounds on ebay and avoid any issues with the card?

Or just recognise banks are liable for fraud, the maximum that can be used is £30 and you would simply report the fraud and get the money back if your card was stolen.

http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/don-t-panic-no-one-is-scanning-your-contactless-card-through-your-pocket-1315231

techno79

Nasqueron wrote: »

Nobody can do that, the logistics of it make it borderline impossible as you have to have a retailer account with a bank to get one the terminals and process funds, simply having one will do precisely nothing. The signal can be messed up by keys or other metal objects in the way as well.

Hardware is already available that can read a lot of personal data from a contactless card. I don't believe anything is impossible as fraud techniques and security prevention is very chicken and egg. If a card is capable of being used legitimately for contactless payments then I think it's reasonable to think that fraud can also happen contactless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elBWoMXt3WY

Nasqueron wrote: »

Why mess around drilling holes when you can simply use tinfoil or get an RFID blocking wallet for a couple of pounds on ebay and avoid any issues with the card?

Because some people do not want to change their wallets just to protect themselves against their cards being used in a way they do not want to. Besides, my work pass and my oyster work through my wallet which is what I want so having an RFID wallet would stop that. I do not want to use a contactless payment card.

Nasqueron wrote: »

Or just recognise banks are liable for fraud, the maximum that can be used is £30 and you would simply report the fraud and get the money back if your card was stolen.

But this requires spotting a rogue transaction and then going through the hassle of making the claim. There's some places that I go on a regular basis. Would I spot a rogue transaction that fitted in with the profile of my spending, no I wouldn't. And even if I did, I don't want to be hassled with making the claim etc.

I'm quite happy knowing that my risk exposure to fraud on my credit card is only when my card is taken out of my wallet. I'm extremely paranoid about my card when it is out of my wallet including covering the keypad with my hands when I enter my pin.

I'm happy with my chip and pin card and I feel contactless cards is a step backwards in security.

Now, if the card has two metal contact points on the card that must have a finger covering them before the card worked in contactless fashion then I would be more than happy with contactless because I would know that while the card was in my wallet, it would not work as contactless. Only the finger covering the two contact points would complete the circuit and allow contactless. That would be much more comfortable and secure for my adoption to it. Until then (or something similar) I will continue to disable the contactless antenna or use cards that are not contactless.

takman

techno79 wrote: »

But this requires spotting a rogue transaction and then going through the hassle of making the claim. There's some places that I go on a regular basis. Would I spot a rogue transaction that fitted in with the profile of my spending, no I wouldn't. And even if I did, I don't want to be hassled with making the claim etc.

If you don't even recognise false transactions on your statement then you have far more to be worried about than contactless fraud!.

Your card could easily be used online to make multiple purchases even though you think it's safely tucked up inside your wallet!. It would only take a camera to record the back and front of the card when you use it.

techno79

takman wrote: »

If you don't even recognise false transactions on your statement then you have far more to be worried about than contactless fraud!.

Your card could easily be used online to make multiple purchases even though you think it's safely tucked up inside your wallet!. It would only take a camera to record the back and front of the card when you use it.

I do check my statements to make sure nothing stands out. If say I regularly by lunch for a few quid at Tesco, then I'm not gonna check every single transaction against a receipt to make sure the date and amount tally up. So if someone does a fraudulent transaction within my spending profile, then I may not pick it up. However, transactions that are for larger amounts or non-routine are checked properly.

So say someone who has some contactless card skimming device starts skimming cards by walking around in Tescos. This person makes sure he only skims cards once and for a very small amount (sub £5). Assuming this person doesn't keep going to the same store, then I'm sure no one would notice that as most of them are likely to be regular Tesco customers. The risk exposure to any single person is only a few £s but the reward for the fraudster could be £1000s.

If this person didn't get greedy then they could easily do 10 stores a month (which is very low numbers) which would net them £10k a month. That's a very rewarding amount for someone yet the risk exposure to any single person is so small.

So even though my risk exposure is small, do I want to fall victim of this crime? Of course not. Chances are, I may not notice but if it does happen to me then I'm only encouraging that kind of fraud. It is for this reason that I choose not to carry around a payment card that is contactless.

ALIBOBSY

Bedsit_Bob wrote: »

Are you saying they just grabbed your purse, and swiped it across the terminal, or that they removed the card from your purse and used it?

If the former, then you could use one of these to prevent it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00D36R6BE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We use something simular but cheaper than that brand, but basically its a metallic sleeve that blocks the contactless until you take the card out. First thing OH did when we got them was to go buy a couple of coffees in MCD's as we knew they took contactless. Asked the girl if he could test the sleeve and she had no probs, put right against the reader it blocked, then removed from the sleeve card worked. Worth getting or if you have the cash you can get a purse or wallet with the sleeve part buildt in.

Ali x

ALIBOBSY

DCFC79 wrote: »

Why was your purse on the counter OP ?

My wallet stays in my pocket until it comes to needing to pay and I pull 1 card out and pay with it, if its contactless and the retailer accepts contactless I tap and pay.

I agree with this my purse stays in my bag zipped up and over my shoulder until I need to pay, it comes out and stays in my hand, I get one card out pay and put it all away, simples

Ali x

Nasqueron

techno79 wrote: »

Hardware is already available that can read a lot of personal data from a contactless card. I don't believe anything is impossible as fraud techniques and security prevention is very chicken and egg. If a card is capable of being used legitimately for contactless payments then I think it's reasonable to think that fraud can also happen contactless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elBWoMXt3WY

OK

Let me explain this simply:

You need a merchant account at a bank in order to activate a card and take payment

You are seriously suggesting people are going to buy payment machines so they can go around sticking them up against people's legs on the off chance they a) have a contactless card and b) it can be read and c) hope no-one notices them waving the card reader around in public, all so they can steal £30 (which will be traceable through their account)?

Credit card fraud is done on a massive scale from stuff like buying millions of cards from hacking websites (e.g. Ashley Madison) not from random card skims

techno79 wrote: »

Because some people do not want to change their wallets just to protect themselves against their cards being used in a way they do not want to. Besides, my work pass and my oyster work through my wallet which is what I want so having an RFID wallet would stop that. I do not want to use a contactless payment card.

You misunderstood - you can get simple sleeves for cards that block the RFID

techno79 wrote: »

But this requires spotting a rogue transaction and then going through the hassle of making the claim. There's some places that I go on a regular basis. Would I spot a rogue transaction that fitted in with the profile of my spending, no I wouldn't. And even if I did, I don't want to be hassled with making the claim etc.

I'm quite happy knowing that my risk exposure to fraud on my credit card is only when my card is taken out of my wallet. I'm extremely paranoid about my card when it is out of my wallet including covering the keypad with my hands when I enter my pin.

I'm happy with my chip and pin card and I feel contactless cards is a step backwards in security.

Now, if the card has two metal contact points on the card that must have a finger covering them before the card worked in contactless fashion then I would be more than happy with contactless because I would know that while the card was in my wallet, it would not work as contactless. Only the finger covering the two contact points would complete the circuit and allow contactless. That would be much more comfortable and secure for my adoption to it. Until then (or something similar) I will continue to disable the contactless antenna or use cards that are not contactless.

If you don't notice odd transactions and report them, what does it matter whether it's contactless or chip and pin? If anything with C&P you are more likely to have problems as the banks have tended to argue if someone has your pin then you must have left it around or been unsafe!