Subject Access Requests on Family Courts - Audio

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emilianozapata
emilianozapata Posts: 50 Forumite
Hi

Anyone who has had a bad time in the family court will know complaining is a nightmare.

In theory, I should be able to get a copy of the tapes of a hearing - its personal data - has anyone had any success negotiating this?

I have particular issues/angles. For transcripts containing edits those edits are supposed to fall within specific guidelines, but my understanding is because of the lack of audit, its a line often crossed by judges. (for those who don't know the judge can edit these without telling anyone - its supposed to only be 'grammar' but you know, judges!).

any tips from SAR experts appreciated.
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  • Guest101
    Guest101 Posts: 15,764 Forumite
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    What do you mean negotiating it?


    I'm not sure you're entitled to the tapes. You are entitled to the transcript. Tapes cant be used in court anyway.


    What exactly is your complaint?
  • emilianozapata
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    No :) its personal data. This is my problem. In theory, everyone is entitled to their personal data. Family courts are a minefield in this regard:
    example there is a website that specialises in SAR's - theres a classic on there where a person asks for the judges handwritten notes, and is told they are not data for the purposes of the DPA. That is 'untrue' to put it nicely. Courts will tell you anything.
    Judges handwritten notes, which I will also be requesting, are filed within the case file, which is listed, which makes it DPA. The courts have been spouting utter nonsense in scope of this field for ages.
    What I am looking for is someone who has successfully negotiated a request.
    Hypothetical:
    A judge made up material fact during his judgement.
    It disappeared from the transcript.
    You now want a copy of the tape, quite reasonably, to check.
    The first stage is to write to ... you guessed it, the SAME Judge to ask their permission for a copy.
    The transcript companies are aware of these 'abuses' but are not allowed to tell people. They keep a copy of the unedited draft.
    It is in short a lid a am preparing to blow wide open, but looking for any experienced complainers to assist.
  • Guest101
    Guest101 Posts: 15,764 Forumite
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    No :) its personal data. - You saying that doesn't make it so. There is other peoples data on those tapes too. That aside you are entitled to an accurate record of the case, hence the transcript. This is my problem. In theory, everyone is entitled to their personal data. Family courts are a minefield in this regard: - Really not. You apply to the MOJ (I believe) with your fee and case number.
    example there is a website that specialises in SAR's - theres a classic on there where a person asks for the judges handwritten notes, and is told they are not data for the purposes of the DPA. - I agree it's not. That is not data held about the person. That is 'untrue' to put it nicely. Courts will tell you anything. - You are able to refer this to the ICO.
    Judges handwritten notes, which I will also be requesting, are filed within the case file, which is listed, which makes it DPA. - But it's not your data. The courts have been spouting utter nonsense in scope of this field for ages. - In your opinion.
    What I am looking for is someone who has successfully negotiated a request. - It makes absolutely no difference. This isn't about negotiation. The law is very clear on this.
    Hypothetical:
    A judge made up material fact during his judgement.
    It disappeared from the transcript.
    You now want a copy of the tape, quite reasonably, to check.
    The first stage is to write to ... you guessed it, the SAME Judge to ask their permission for a copy.
    The transcript companies are aware of these 'abuses' but are not allowed to tell people. They keep a copy of the unedited draft.
    It is in short a lid a am preparing to blow wide open, but looking for any experienced complainers to assist.



    If a judge made up a fact in his judgment, then you already have a copy of that judgment.


    To check what? You were there. Did you not take notes? You have the case file, with all the evidence, did you not keep that?


    Oh my. I think I see where this is going... Contempt of court I suspect.
  • emilianozapata
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    "Really not. You apply to the MOJ (I believe)"
    OK, this really is an issue I have researched to some degree before posting.

    SAR's go to the MOJ. Of course, i would be sending an SAR in to the MOJ, but the process initially to go through is via the Judges Court.

    "- I agree it's not. That is not data held about the person."
    If it is your petition, its your data. You appear to be posting 'opinion' rather a lot.
    The reason given for the denial, if you go back and read my post, was nothing to do with ownership of data, which was not in dispute, it was because it was handwritten.

    I am of course posting with knowledge of a number of authoritative cases that have been challenged, and won by the applicant for information, I am posting here to find people who have negotiated clear passage.

    "- It makes absolutely no difference. This isn't about negotiation. The law is very clear on this."

    No, its not. The Family Courts are covered by the Civil Rules' many of these are in CONFLICT with ICO, which is why ICO deal with so many complaints, and uphold so many against the Family Courts.
    I'll stop now, but could go on. I welcome your opinion. Thank you for contributing.
    I would note, its not really what I was asking for.
  • emilianozapata
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    "You said:
    If a judge made up a fact in his judgment, then you already have a copy of that judgment.

    To check what? You were there. Did you not take notes? You have the case file, with all the evidence, did you not keep that?

    Oh my. I think I see where this is going... Contempt of court I suspect."

    Contempt of court? omg. its the 21st century. Judges make mistakes. even when a judgement is 'under god'.
    Have you ever heard of the court of appeal? or Strasbourg?
    what is pretty clear is you have already pre-judged this. I hope you stay away from the field of law.
  • Guest101
    Guest101 Posts: 15,764 Forumite
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    "Really not. You apply to the MOJ (I believe)"
    OK, this really is an issue I have researched to some degree before posting.

    SAR's go to the MOJ. Of course, i would be sending an SAR in to the MOJ, but the process initially to go through is via the Judges Court. - The internal processes are not relevant. As long as you make a valid request under the DPA, the law takes precedent.

    "- I agree it's not. That is not data held about the person."
    If it is your petition, its your data. You appear to be posting 'opinion' rather a lot. - What do you mean 'your petition'. You are entitled to data which is held about YOU, not someone else.
    The reason given for the denial, if you go back and read my post, was nothing to do with ownership of data, which was not in dispute, it was because it was handwritten. - That's not what you wrote. Link please.

    I am of course posting with knowledge of a number of authoritative cases that have been challenged, and won by the applicant for information, I am posting here to find people who have negotiated clear passage. - So you are aware the ICO ultimately decides?

    "- It makes absolutely no difference. This isn't about negotiation. The law is very clear on this."

    No, its not. The Family Courts are covered by the Civil Rules' many of these are in CONFLICT with ICO, which is why ICO deal with so many complaints, and uphold so many against the Family Courts. - So what's your issue. The law is still very clear. It's just that the MOJ aren't clear on what the law is.
    I'll stop now, but could go on. I welcome your opinion. Thank you for contributing.
    I would note, its not really what I was asking for.



    You were asking something rather specific.


    I'm telling you there is no negotiation.


    You apply, you appeal to ICO, that's it.
  • Guest101
    Guest101 Posts: 15,764 Forumite
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    "You said:
    If a judge made up a fact in his judgment, then you already have a copy of that judgment.

    To check what? You were there. Did you not take notes? You have the case file, with all the evidence, did you not keep that?

    Oh my. I think I see where this is going... Contempt of court I suspect."

    Contempt of court? omg. its the 21st century. Judges make mistakes. even when a judgement is 'under god'.
    Have you ever heard of the court of appeal? or Strasbourg?
    what is pretty clear is you have already pre-judged this. I hope you stay away from the field of law.



    1: you have a copy of the judgment, if there are faslehoods in there you can challenge this.
    2: Contempt of court is a common occurrence.
    3: Yes, what area of law are you appealing under? You plan to take this to the ECJ?


    I'm fine where I am, thanks
  • emilianozapata
    emilianozapata Posts: 50 Forumite
    edited 26 August 2016 at 1:18PM
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    Guest101 wrote: »
    1: you have a copy of the judgment, if there are faslehoods in there you can challenge this.
    2: Contempt of court is a common occurrence.
    3: Yes, what area of law are you appealing under? You plan to take this to the ECJ?


    I'm fine where I am, thanks

    I am not going to discuss any case, unlike you, I understand the implications of directly referencing events.
    contempt of court is as common in the Family Court as breaking a myriad of Civil Rules, and lying in court. The Family Court, in relocation for example, do treat victims of domestic abuse who are prosecuting in criminal proceedings on abuse in a negative way - let me know if you need the judgement templates, actually, I'll let you research, the practice will do you good. Its called in other fields perversion of the course of justice, its a witness intimidation and it breaches EU2012/29
    say it aint so.

    So far as challenging judgements, you are again incorrect. you have produced a generality.
    There are many reasons why a person cannot challenge a judgement, as I am sure you are aware.
  • emilianozapata
    emilianozapata Posts: 50 Forumite
    edited 26 August 2016 at 1:47PM
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    Guest101 wrote: »
    You were asking something rather specific.


    I'm telling you there is no negotiation.


    You apply, you appeal to ICO, that's it.

    OMG. no, you are wrong.
    As someone who works regularly in liaison with the highest court in the land, I can recommend a guardian anagram solver. blloox.

    The wording is critical, which is why I outlined my question rather specifically, it appears you are not the droid I was looking for.

    Negotiation:
    2.
    the action or process of transferring legal ownership of a document.
  • onomatopoeia99
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    Guest101 wrote: »
    3: Yes, what area of law are you appealing under? You plan to take this to the ECJ?

    You appear lost. The OP mentioned Strasbourg, home of the ECtHR. The ECJ sits in Luxembourg.

    Both courts have on occasion dealt with issues arising from personal data.
    Proud member of the wokerati, though I don't eat tofu.Home is where my books are.Solar PV 5.2kWp system, SE facing, >1% shading, installed March 2019.Mortgage free July 2023
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