EON want me to have smart meters

System

Sosumi wrote: »

Hengus,

Many thanks for taking the time to post that explanation.

What does remain unclear, at least to me, is whether a SMETS 2 smart meter will be any improvement on a SMETS 1 meter if it still cannot access a usable mobile 'phone signal at the consumer's location.

Hence why it seems to me that an inbuilt facility to use (encrypted and securely) the consumer's domestic landline Internet connection instead, in such situations, would be sensible.

After all, that is what a smart 'phone does with data, albeit in reverse. (By which I mean that a smart 'phone normally defaults to a wi-fi signal if it can find one, rather than using up the user's mobile 'phone data allowance. My point is that it has an inbuilt facility to use either.)

The whole point of a WAN is that no one property is dependent on having a mobile signal. Your smart meter will mesh with other smart meters in your area. The problem with using your internet connection is poor wifi range as many people have found out with the IHD. As I said before, there is also the issue of network security as suppliers (and potential hackers) can turn off your supply remotely. Looking at my router logs which shows all the available networks in my area, it would seem that 25% of the owners cannot even be bothered to set up simple wifi network security.

Moreover, in situations where wifi range is poor (for example, flats and stone built houses), the solution proposed is to move away from the 2.4/5GHz domestic wifi bands to the 868 band which domestic routers cannot detect. This band is already in use for such things as smart heating controls. Whilst range is much improved, interference from metal objects in the home is an issue. For example, my smart heating boiler demand relays have to be sited a minimum of 30 cms away from pipes, tanks, electrical junction boxes and 1Metre minimum from another wifi source.

SMETS2 is now the definitive standard from UK smart meters. A SMETS2 compliant meter will connect to the Data Communications Company whereas SMETS 1 meters will not. SMETS2 meters are required for customer smart switching. SMETS 1 meters, if possible, may be upgraded from mid 2018 onwards. If they are not suitable for an upgrade, then the plan is to replace them with a SMETS 2 meter.

Edit:

This might explain it better than I can:

http://www.smartme.co.uk/technical.html

Frozen_up_north

One of the diagrams shows a communications hub in each house, I hope that is not going to be the case, as it's yet another box to accommodate.

Maybe they expect everyone will have smart appliances? In parts of Australia there are remote switch units to temporarily turn off air conditioning to avoid needing to turn off power to a whole district... But they are only an FM radio module (works on RDS signals) and a 20 min timer.

In the future the energy supplier could perhaps re-schedule your smart washing machine! 1984 is here.

System

Frozen_up_north wrote: »

One of the diagrams shows a communications hub in each house, I hope that is not going to be the case, as it's yet another box to accommodate.

Maybe they expect everyone will have smart appliances? In parts of Australia there are remote switch units to temporarily turn off air conditioning to avoid needing to turn off power to a whole district... But they are only an FM radio module (works on RDS signals) and a 20 min timer.

In the future the energy supplier could perhaps re-schedule your smart washing machine! 1984 is here.

The hub normally sits alongside the meter provided your meter box isn't close to metal or a Faraday cage.

Whilst the expensive Leccy and Gaz adverts try to imply that a smart meter will in itself save you money, the truth is somewhat different.

The aim is to bring in ToU tariffs - based more on available generation than just demand. It follows that when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing, consumers should be able to avail themselves of almost free energy. Conversely, when generation capacity is low, then initially demand will be managed via pricing with the long term hope that consumers will buy smart appliances which can be turned off, as you say, by the supplier. For example, turning off a freezer for 3 hours will do the contents little harm.

The Govt's hope is that by reducing peak demand, they will not have to pay for old power stations to be on standby 'just in case'.

Sosumi

Hengus,

Thank you for the additional information. Much appreciated. :A

It’s extremely interesting.

But, in some respects, it’s also rather alarming.

Upon the strength of all you’ve so kindly explained I’ve decided to resist having smart meters installed and, for as long as it’s possible, I’ll refuse to permit it at my own home.

Now, I’d like to make it clear that I’m most certainly not being Luddite about this: normally, I welcome and embrace progress and new technologies but this particular one has too much downside for me.

First of all, on a purely technical point, I don’t think my gas meter would be able to establish a reliable wireless link to my electricity meter, anyway. They are located quite a distance apart, on different-facing walls of a fairly large property and there is a lot of serious masonry between them. Not to mention other devices, wiring and plumbing, such as you describe, that would cause interference and disrupt their communication.

My main objection, though, is that I would lose control over the meter readings upon which my supplier bases its calculation of my account balance.

Other than when we’re away (leaving the house on tick-over) I check both meters every Sunday morning, pop the readings into a now fairly sophisticated Excel workbook and submit them online to my supplier (E.ON) every fortnight. It takes but a moment.

I also take, record and submit readings on the days I switch tariffs within E.ON (usually collective fixes), so that their figures and mine always tally exactly.

By this process, E.ON and I sing to precisely the same songbook and we always both know the exact state of my account. By keeping an eye on that, I’m also able to tweak the amount of the monthly direct debit online myself, when necessary, to keep things prudently on track So, all is sweetness and light: they’re happy and I’m happy.

If, however, my meters are replaced with smart ones which then start sending readings to E.ON of their own accord and without my knowledge, this permanent synchronisation of E.ON’s figures with mine will be lost.

So, for that reason, I’d rather stay in hands-on control, with dumb meters and my own Internet connection to E.ON’s (excellent) online account management tools.





But I can see, nonetheless, why smart meters could offer a better solution for others less prepared than I to micro-manage their energy accounts.

(Until gremlins get into the system, the disrupted and corrupted Einsteins begin sending rogue readings to the suppliers and customers start receiving huge, incorrect bills which then take an army of support staff – and ages on the telephone – to sort out.)

Wait till nPower, “Scottish” (Spanish) Power and Co-op Energy have to deal with that one… :eek:

brewerdave

re post #42 -Hengus,another excellent post -thanks !
HOWEVER, if I'm reading these various articles correctly then in an area of very poor mobile reception ,early adopters of SMART meters (even if SMETS2 compliant) will still have a comms issue as the WAN will not be viable? It will need at least one home to establish the link back to the DCC ?

System

brewerdave wrote: »

re post #42 -Hengus,another excellent post -thanks !
HOWEVER, if I'm reading these various articles correctly then in an area of very poor mobile reception ,early adopters of SMART meters (even if SMETS2 compliant) will still have a comms issue as the WAN will not be viable? It will need at least one home to establish the link back to the DCC ?

You would have to ask the supplier. Most suppliers have been targeting given areas at a time. I suspect that this is to establish a presence of their meters in a local area as a means of establishing a WAN back to them. SMETS2 meters will have a comms hub provided by the DCC so my understanding is that WAN will be established across all the smart meters that are SMETS2 compliant.

As an aside, I was reading an article last night that suggests that the remote cut off function on smart meters is likely to be disabled. My guess is that this is for security reasons; however, the public line is that suppliers, having taken legal advice, are unwilling to disconnect a supply remotely to avoid potential distress/harm to vulnerable people. Equally, for safety reasons, they now feel that it would sensible to restore supply manually. This project is still feeling its way.

brewerdave

Seems like this project is a bit like the DAB radio fiasco -that was originally meant to "take over" from FM/AM in 2015 - now vanishing further over the horizon!!( I read an article suggesting 2022:rotfl:)

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

poppasmurf_bewdley wrote: »

If eON smart meters require a mobile phone signal to work, could you tell us which network they are on?

I'm having a smart meter installed tomorrow but the mobile phone signal in my very rural area is poor.

Thanks.

poppasmurf_bewdley wrote: »

Thanks for that.

The reason I asked is because I use 02 and have a signal booster which gives me five bars throughout my cottage but it only works on 02 and you have to programme the device with the phone numbers using it.

Does the smart meter receive the phone call or make the call?

poppasmurf_bewdley wrote: »

Well, after everything, the eON man came today, fitted the smart meter and took it out again.

Apparently, it couldn't pick up a signal long enough to make communication with base so it couldn't be left in situ. So now I have a little white plastic thing with just a numbers display, which doesn't look very robust to me.

So it looks like I'll be left out of the smart meter revolution, at least until the phone companies get their acts together and provide a proper signal in this area. :mad:

Hello poppasmurf and sorry we had to abort your Smart Meter installation.

I've come across this type of thing before. Sometimes, pre-visit tests show a strong enough signal in the area but local circumstances water it down sufficiently to make it unusable for Smart Meters. These circumstances can be things like certain materials between the two points that are trying to communicate. As I mentioned above (post 28), the electricity meter is the hub of the operation. It stores, sends and receives information. If there's a gas meter, this will send readings to the electricity meter and the electricity meter sends the information to the Energy Display and back to us. Any material between the two points trying to communicate can affect the signal quality. Wood, plasterboard and other building materials generally have a minimal effect on the signal but thick stone and concrete can have a bigger impact. Metal has the biggest effect on the signal. How far away meters are from each other and the Energy Display can also have an impact.

Our technicians carry out various onsite tests to see if the signal is strong enough. Where it falls below a certain level, it's likely it won't be sufficient and the job will be aborted. Guessing but certainly sounds something like the above happened here.

We're doing a lot of work to try to iron out these problems. Once sorted, we'll be back in touch to ask if we can arrange another visit. Like you, the network we use is O2 so hopefully we'll resolve your particular issue sooner rather than later.

Sorry again for the inconvenience poppasmurf.

Malc

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

brewerdave wrote: »

Never really thought about the signal strength issues - we struggle to get a usable mobile signal -sometimes texts come thru literally hours after being sent -and phone calls are frequently broken up/disconnected - I had a guy do some work recently, and he had to stand in the middle of the road to get his payment terminal to connect!
So how are the Utility distribution cos. going to cope with these issues longer term??

Hello brewerdave.

Just posted some stuff about signal strengths for our Smart Meters above (post 49). Don't know if it's of interest? It's something we're doing a lot of work on to sort so we're in a better position to be able to offer Smart Meters to more of our customers.

Malc

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

sacsquacco wrote: »

Sorry to say this Malc but from my experience with both Eon and British Gas meter fitters they will not start the conversations off when fitting a meter with the words "I am about to fit a smart meter , you have the s right to refuse it ".Take it from me , they just fit one and will only fit a normal meter if the occupier is clued up and refuses one.
Water meter fitters are exactly the same.They are requested to tell the occupier by their boss the same spiel but they don`t say a word.
Both my smart meters were fitted by BG and the fitter certainly never brought it up until I asked him.I remember I actually told him he was supposed to tell them. I get this info from a former meter reader who now fits smarts for Eon.They will fit a smart meter in unless the occupier stops them.

To be honest sacsquacco, this should all be sorted before anyone arrives at the property to start fitting a Smart Meter. All our Smart Meter installations are pre-booked through specialist teams and this is where conversations are held to make customers aware of the various implications. Smart Meters aren't fitted as part of a statutory recertification programme when a meter reaches the end of its lifespan. They're one off jobs arranged after agreement with a customer.

Although technicians are free to discuss all aspects of Smart Meters and many do, it's not their main role. This is to fit the meters, check they're communicating as they should, make sure all is safe and explain how they work. I'm sure each technician has their own approach and some will be more engaged with the background stuff than others. As I say, though, the implications of having Smart Meters is part of the talks when jobs are first arranged.

Hope this explains.

Malc