Incentivising Learning

KingS6

Sometimes it is all down to the individual receiving the incentive/bribe.

From personal experience I was too busy being a teenager to understand the full value that great (not just good) exam results bring. Couple that with the cohort I shared an academic year with, The ethos of the school and the fact that said school was crime ridden means exam results meant diddly squat in that context.

I was offered cash on a sliding scale, the higher the result the higher payment and it just simply did not have enough of an effect on me to swot up. Maybe it's because I knew I could coast on acceptable results.

Horses for courses spring to mind.

Detroit

cadon wrote: »

Of course at 16 I knew that results were "important". There are different levels of importance though. Most people, whether "patronised" 16-year-olds or adults would naturally assume that an average GSCE result plus a great degree would lead to lots of opportunities. Competition however is so brutal that you need an exceptional GSCE result and an exceptional degree. There are so many people going to university, you can't just do OK anymore.

Personally, I'm thankful I didn't have to sit my school exams with that kind of pressure weighing on me. I'm glad I was encouraged to do as well as I possibly could by my parents rather than them letting me do just OK to teach me some kind of strange lesson. It would have prevented me from having the career and financial independence that I do now.

There is a time and a place to take the moral high ground - it's not at exam time.

I don't see this as a moral issue, it's about pragmatism. If a person is bribed to do their best, rather than doing so for their future success, or because they have a genuine work ethic; what happens when the bribes are no longer forthcoming?

I agree with your point that it is increasingly competitive. However, I think this makes it even more important that children are encouraged to do their best because that's what you need to do to keep up in the adult world, rather than because they will get a short term reward.

Someone who lacks a work ethic for its own sake, can't see the benefits to be gained from making the most of an education, and doesn't respond to appropriate encouragement from parents, will not get on very well later down the line when pitched against others who do.
In which case success at 16 due to parental bribes may be just be deferring failure.

Again, pragmatically, some children need more encouragement than others, and parents can offer practical help with this by setting rules and schedules, such as no PS until an hour of study has been completed, and by getting involved in the work itself.

For example sending them off to learn a topic then getting them to return in an hour and explain it to you, then test each other. It's surprising how much you learn by testing someone else.

This gives a strong message that it's sufficiently important for you to invest your own time, and that you're not asking them to do something you're not prepared to share in.

I think this is more positive and demonstrates your interest and support much more powerfully than the easy option of throwing money at them.

Spendless

onlyroz wrote: »

JoJo, we seem to be breeding a generation of kids who are taught that competitiveness is somehow bad. E.g. the school ran a contest to see who could make the best "shoebox garden". So my kids worked super hard on theirs, only to be told by the headteacher that they were "all brilliant", and everybody should give themselves a good pat on the back, and there wouldn't be an overall winner declared. And then there's the concept of the "non-competitive sports day" because we don't want to traumatise the poor kids by having them come second or third in a race.

The real world is a tough place, and our soft kids will flounder in it unless they are pushed a little, and are just occasionally told that perhaps they could have tried a little harder at something.

I really don't see how we are harming our kids if we reward them for doing well.

Do your children do any outside school activities? This can be the route to allowing competitiveness into their lives, if school is lacking.Things like sports clubs (obviously) but also things like dancing or music, where they take exams and pass grades.

My DD does drama, so as well as her weekly class which puts on productions, so she has to audition for parts, she does private lessons (lamda) and takes exams and they have different pass rates and she moves up the grades, which eventually qualify for ucas points. This has given her a competitive edge that spills into other areas of her life, where sometimes she just wants to 'win' for the thrill of doing so. This is the complete opposite of her naturally brighter but very lazy and completely unmotivated brother, I'd like to find the thing that does incentive him! Financial bribes weren't an option, as this year, I've spent from Jan 1st to the day he left school without a job.

onlyroz

My brother struggled at school and often had to be pushed into doing his homework. However, with the right incentives he managed to do pretty well in his GCSEs and A Levels (far better than people expected). Without the incentives I doubt he'd have done half as well. As a result, once he got to uni he had learned that a bit of graft did produce results and he's now gone on to be successful in his career.

The thing is that many teenagers are naturally bone idle - I don't think it's true to say that a teen who needs pushing to work hard will become an adult who needs pushing to work hard. Sometimes an extra push in your teens is enough to demonstrate the benefits of hard work.

GwylimT

theoretica wrote: »

I guess this is a question of how much do the means devalue the results?

If a parent is faced with a kid who isn't studying for their own sake and with encouragement, but the parent thinks they would respond to financial incentive is it better to offer the rewards and see them do better than otherwise? Or to leave them to do comparatively poorly and hopefully learn an expensive lesson in lost years and opportunity?

My son was lazy when he got to college, he is bright and found gettin A* grades at GCSE fairly easily, so he thought he didn't need to work as hard as he had done at school. As a result at AS-level his highest grade was a B and lowest a D which for him wasn't very good at all. He then realised he had screwed up, resat the year and came out with all A grades at both AS and A level.

Not only did this mean he got into his uni of choice by resitting, it made him realise if he made the same mistake at uni he would be royally screwed.

He may have worked harder at AS level with a bribe, but a person short sighted enough to value £30 more than a life time of earning a good wage is unlikely to be motivated enough to achieve well without bribes.

For my son the biggest bribe was to be able to complete medical school and be a doctor.

Andypandyboy

onlyroz wrote: »

My brother struggled at school and often had to be pushed into doing his homework. However, with the right incentives he managed to do pretty well in his GCSEs and A Levels (far better than people expected). Without the incentives I doubt he'd have done half as well. As a result, once he got to uni he had learned that a bit of graft did produce results and he's now gone on to be successful in his career.

The thing is that many teenagers are naturally bone idle - I don't think it's true to say that a teen who needs pushing to work hard will become an adult who needs pushing to work hard. Sometimes an extra push in your teens is enough to demonstrate the benefits of hard work.

I agree, I had one like that! The difference is that although we encouraged and supported, we didn't bribe. He got decent GCSE results and good A/AS results without working very much at all. He went on to get a good degree, and now he does some mentoring of teens who struggle to reach their potential.

Ironically, he is sometimes heard to say "if only they would put that extra bit of effort in!....and yes, we do point out what a hypocrite that makes him:rotfl:

System

I had friends who got promised x about of money for each A. B. C grade. Some of them made quite a bit of money from it. My parents couldn't afford to do that so i just had to motivate myself. Would i have tried harder if fincaially motivated? Perhaps, but i felt i gave it my best shot anyway.

cadon

Detroit wrote: »

I don't see this as a moral issue, it's about pragmatism. If a person is bribed to do their best, rather than doing so for their future success, or because they have a genuine work ethic; what happens when the bribes are no longer forthcoming?

Well, the bribes are no longer forthcoming when they're adults and off to university with good school grades in their back pocket and every hope of success. Struggling at first year isn't the end of the world, it generally doesn't impact on the final classification. Struggling in school exams, well, that has a more lasting impact. Those results do stay with you forever.

The emotional gap between 16 and 18 is quite big. I wouldn't expect a 16-year-old to see the world in the same way as an 18-year-old.

Andypandyboy wrote: »

I really don't understand your reasoning. If, at 16 you are an adult then surely if you don't recognise the importance of those exceptional results unless you are being paid to do so, there is an issue?

Encouragement is one thing, bribery is another, everyone needs the former, I don't think anyone should need the latter.

You seem to be saying that had your parents not bribed you to do well it would be their fault had you not got the job you felt you deserved. I beg to differ.

I think you're putting words into my mouth.

I don't recall ever saying that I deserve to have the job that I do. I am lucky to be in the position I am, I am grateful to be in the position I am, and a large part of it is down to my parents.

If they hadn't helped me achieve the best possible school results, it wouldn't have mattered how much work I put in as an adult, I simply wouldn't have been eligible for my first graduate job. Would it have been their fault? No. Would it have been my fault? Yes. Would any of that have made a blind bit of difference? No. I still wouldn't have been eligible.

You seem to be saying that you think parents should refuse to bribe their kids as a moral point of principle. I think when it comes to school grades, often the ends justify the means. Helping a child get the best possible results for that child is a kindness.

Detroit

cadon wrote: »

Well, the bribes are no longer forthcoming when they're adults and off to university with good school grades in their back pocket and every hope of success. Struggling at first year isn't the end of the world, it generally doesn't impact on the final classification. Struggling in school exams, well, that has a more lasting impact. Those results do stay with you forever.

The emotional gap between 16 and 18 is quite big. I wouldn't expect a 16-year-old to see the world in the same way as an 18-year-old.




I think you're putting words into my mouth.

I don't recall ever saying that I deserve to have the job that I do. I am lucky to be in the position I am, I am grateful to be in the position I am, and a large part of it is down to my parents.

If they hadn't helped me achieve the best possible school results, it wouldn't have mattered how much work I put in as an adult, I simply wouldn't have been eligible for my first graduate job. Would it have been their fault? No. Would it have been my fault? Yes. Would any of that have made a blind bit of difference? No. I still wouldn't have been eligible.

You seem to be saying that you think parents should refuse to bribe their kids as a moral point of principle. I think when it comes to school grades, often the ends justify the means. Helping a child get the best possible results for that child is a kindness.

I absolutely agree it's a kindness to help children do their best, and that they may need that at 16 in a way they don't at 18.
I don't dispute the intent, just the means.
There are far better ways to encourage than bribes, albeit not as easy for the parent as simply handing over cash.
I'm not convinced though that the best way to address a child's lack of effort is with the resolution that involves the least effort on the part of their parent.

Andypandyboy

cadon wrote: »

Well, the bribes are no longer forthcoming when they're adults and off to university with good school grades in their back pocket and every hope of success. Struggling at first year isn't the end of the world, it generally doesn't impact on the final classification. Struggling in school exams, well, that has a more lasting impact. Those results do stay with you forever.

The emotional gap between 16 and 18 is quite big. I wouldn't expect a 16-year-old to see the world in the same way as an 18-year-old.



I think you're putting words into my mouth.

I don't recall ever saying that I deserve to have the job that I do. I am lucky to be in the position I am, I am grateful to be in the position I am, and a large part of it is down to my parents.

If they hadn't helped me achieve the best possible school results, it wouldn't have mattered how much work I put in as an adult, I simply wouldn't have been eligible for my first graduate job. Would it have been their fault? No. Would it have been my fault? Yes. Would any of that have made a blind bit of difference? No. I still wouldn't have been eligible.

You seem to be saying that you think parents should refuse to bribe their kids as a moral point of principle. I think when it comes to school grades, often the ends justify the means. Helping a child get the best possible results for that child is a kindness.

If I am honest I think that using bribery is a cop out. It is the easy route, short termism if you like. You say it is a moral point of principle, as though they are taking the moral high ground, when actually the reverse is true. How easy is it to dish the dosh? (assuming you have it to dish)

How much harder it is to work with your chid and encourage them to see the long term results, to see from example, that good results may actually enable you to dish the dosh....

It is not a kindness to lull someone into believing that their effort will always be funded, will always be pushed by others. It is a kindness to encourage realism, self reliance and working to the best you can at all times.

Regardless of what you say, I infer that looking back, if your parents hadn't bribed you to work, then you would indeed have attached blame to them had you failed or not achieved the optimum results. Extrapolate that forward and it could mean that you always look for others to blame if you do not suceed.