Damn Chimney Support again..

ydrol2

Hi I'm trying to get chimney properly supported without wasting anymore money! The breast is already been removed by previous owner but the stack was supported on a wooden 2x4 lintel.

Short version:

Shall I buy £500 plans from SE who visited site, and require 2 perpendicular RSJ across both party walls
OR
buy £75 calculations over the internet for 1 parallel RSJ front to back.

both have different risks ...

Long version:

in March: A Structural Engineer came to site and recommended 2 parallel steels across mid terrace party walls and a lintel. Plans were (then) £380+VAT (they never recommend gallows)

In June: Spoke to Lewisham BC, they allow gallows in concrete mortar brickwork, my neighbour across the road also has same build and gallows approved. So I'd though I'd chance it ..

- Pay £180 for Building Notice. Council advise surveyor turns up on first day (of a one day job).

- Engage builder after site inspection / neighbour site inspection and quote.(£650)

- Pay builder 50% (£325) to turn up and start work - 1 gallows.
Builder turns up - starts work, District Survey turns up - stops work. Recommends L shape RSJ support across Load bearing walls. (Neighbours bricks in better shape than mine)

- Builder quotes £1900 for new work.

Meanwhile I think the best play is to get calculations approved by council before doing anything else.

I could get the original SE calcs - they might re-quote but looking at £500 I suspect.

Or I went online and someone could quote either:
£125 for two RSJ across two neighbours party walls + lintel
OR
£75 for a single parallel RSJ but builder will need to check issues with eaves

I like the cheaper plan, less materials, no party walls , but my builder says - "no offence but its engineers job to check eaves"

I've also had another confident by more expensive builder previously suggest the single parallel RSJ approach too.

So I want to make sure whatever I do next , the approach is approved by the council, before any more work is done.

I think my choices are:

- Get proper SE out to site again and pay £500 for plans for 2RSJ/2Party wall approach (maybe ask their opinion on 1 RSJ approach?)

- Pay £75 for email calcs (https://www.easybeams.co.uk) for 1 RSJ front to back approach. and hope there are no issues with eaves.

- Pay £125 for email calcs (https://www.easybeams.co.uk) for 2 RSJ 2 Party Wall approach.

After that when I engage builder I need a clear breakdown of materials and labour, and agree my ownership of materials.

My attempts at cost saving so far have cost me £325 - and I'm starting to feel very unlucky here!

teneighty

Can you just ask the first engineer why he designed 2 perpendicular beams? The norm is one parallel beam so I suspect he spotted something that makes that impractical. Or maybe he was padding the job out to justify his fee.

Given your builder is in fact a roofer I think you need all the help you can get so I would stick with an engineer who will make a site inspection

ydrol2

Thanks, I've not long sent an email to the 1st engineer to ask why single RSJ was not recommended. They did come to site several months back, so I'm hoping the time gap is not an issue.

Furts

You need the design and calculations approved by Buildings Regulations before going any further. This is what you should have done before rather than try and wing it!

Hopefully your payment for a Building Notice will be same as the Full Plans approach, and no more payment is required here. However we are in austerity so Councils' are looking at extra income everywhere now.

Beware of doing it on the cheap over the internet. What comeback is there? What design gets produced? and will the council accept whatever you come up with? I would not go down that route.

When work is to proceed think long and deep about using your roofer to do the work. Clearly he is out of his depth, and has taken you for money. Not entirely his fault here, because it like asking an accountant to act as a solicitor. You need a competent builder for work like this.

ydrol2

Thank for this. It seems really incredibly hard to find builders with these skills that are interested in jobs this size. ( and final payment conditional on council approval.) .

phil24_7

I would be giving the original builder/roofer a very wide berth!

stone7

Get the redundant stack removed and have done with it.

ydrol2

stone7 wrote: »

Get the redundant stack removed and have done with it.

Its shared with a neighbour, and the stack appears to be mostly on their roof. Of course I'd have to get their written agreement. But it's and option for sure. Just not sure I want to go there...

OTOH These are 1930s ex-council houses so no great demand for a real fire. It might be something to consider.

Furts

ydrol2 wrote: »

Thank for this. It seems really incredibly hard to find builders with these skills that are interested in jobs this size. ( and final payment conditional on council approval.) .

I would like to correct your view here. Payment is not conditional on a "council approval" .The "council" are neither your consultants, nor your quality control, nor your Clerk Of Works, nor your Quantity Surveyor.

You decide on the final payment - it is your job and you take control. You are responsible for the Building Control Application, you are responsible for requesting inspections, you are responsible for requesting a final inspection and you are responsible for requesting a Completion Certificate.

There is no difficulty finding builders to take this work on. The problem is clients who will not accept their responsibilities, clients who want jobs done on the cheap, clients who want to employ cowboys and so on. Competent builders avoid such clients as if they were carriers of the plague.

You have already been fleeced of £325, and no doubt you have also rubbed up the back of your local Building Control Department. If you consider why this has happened, and change your approach, you may get a satisfactory result. Here I will give you a clue: Southcoastrgi has given you a satisfactory answer (in your other post on this topic, which in itself tells a story) but you have chosen to have a dig at him in return. You draw the conclusions...

ydrol2

Personal diggs etc asside (which are mostly directed at me anyway!) - I tried to do it on the cheap I admit that but now I'm going the correct route. Getting plans, getting a builder to work to those plans. The objective is to get the chimney supported soundly and for the district surveyor to say the job is sound.

You decide on the final payment - it is your job and you take control.

Is it not correct for me to decide that full and final payment is conditional on council approval? As that is what I need.

The two proper builders I spoke to had no problems with that. Are you saying that is not correct?

What happens if I get plans from a SE, get a builder to build, get a District Surveyor to inspect before, during , and after , and then when builder completes, the surveyor does not approve. How does a customer protect themselves against additional costs, and keep builder engaged? Genuinely curious. (sans-ad hominem if possible).

Regarding finding a builder, even offering a fair price, I genuinely think its the whole 'building control vs size of job' that is putting people off. You might have some insight into why the following job didnt get a single sniff on rated people with an initial budget of up to £2000. (really expecting around £1000-£1500) Could you advise:

Install concrete lintel + pair gallows bracket in loft.

The chimney breast in the bedroom below has already been removed, but the remaining stack is on a wooden lintel.

I would like the wooden lintel replaced with a 9" concrete steel reinforced lintel + gallows brackets secured with 10mm bolt and resin bond. I've checked with Lewisham Council District Surveyor/Building Control and they will allow this configuration. I'd also like builder to work with building control to ensure the final work is approved.
Currently the wooden lintel is just above the loft floor. At least 10 courses of brickwork will need to be removed to make room for the new support inside of the loft.

To summarize the job:

- Remove at least 10 courses of brickwork, to allow room for gallow brackets to be installed

- Install concrete lintel, perched on gallows, 10mm bolts, resin bond

- Lay dry bed of sand and cement to pack out between lintel and brickwork

- Remove all debris

Property style: Suburban

ydrol2

Also is this sequence correct:

- get Building notice.
- get Engineering calcs/plans
- get Council to approve plans/calcs.
- get a builders quote and agree payment schedule and dates

- day 1 : schedule Surveyor visit.
- schedule any intermediate visits as determined by builder/council
- work complete: schedule final inspection (council?)
- full and final payment to builder
- receive completion certificate from council.

I would like full and final payment to be conditional on final inspection and a nod from the council. You seem to be saying this will put builders off? If , as you say, council are not my quality control? who are? Do I get inspection from someone else? a SE? Do I really need to if Council are happy?