The EU: IN or OUT?

Mr_Costcutter

dingdong3000 wrote: »

one of the best and most informative videos I've seen so far on the EU.

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/1293361974024537/

I listened to this clip with interest, but my eye was drawn to the following :'' University of Liverpool Law School’s Professor Michael Dougan has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK'' . That for me illustrates one of the problems I have personally with remaining within the EU - the complexity of EU Law.

Mr_Costcutter

maxie014 wrote: »

The uk to the eu is like an old loaded uncle you cant stand! you hate him but have to keep in with him for all the handouts,inheritance and benefits,you cant quite bring yourself to have nothing to do with him just slowly try and bleed him dry!

What an analogy lol

I_Love_comps

My question why close the poll on here voting is not until Thursday?

buglawton

Cos the poll result wasn't going where MSE's owners wanted it to?

buglawton

BananaRepublic wrote: »

That is a key lie by the remain crowd. EU officials have admitted that we would get a decent deal, not so far off what we have, as they need our trade. So, the Japanese would continue to invest here, as an inroad to the EU, and the City would be largely happy. We would be free of political interference, but would have to conform to EU regulations on our exports to the EU, which is normal anyway for a trade deal. We would control our borders, although I suspect we would take in lots of immigrants anyway. So the key advantage is no political control, and the EU would be unable to apply laws that for example discriminated against our finance sector and other industries. So we would in fact be better off, as they could not damage us so easily. And I think we would still have to pay a membership fee as per Norway.

America wants us to remain so we submit to TTIP, a very dodgy looking issue. Europe wants us to remain as we pay in so much. But overall for us I feel that Brexit is the best choice, even if we will get 10% less sun and 15% more rain, and a few zombies roaming the streets i.e. disappointed Remainers.

Nice roundup! Pity no politician was willing to describe such a fair all round picture.

bowlhead99

Dird wrote: »

Completely avoids the difficult topic for remainers of uncontrolled, low-skilled workers flooding your NHS and schools.

Such "floods" are presumably not without "controls". The controls are put in place by the HR departments of the schools and NHS to ensure the workers are of sufficient quality. I don't really mind if I or my kids are wheeled around a hospital by a guy who doesn't have great grammar, as long as he does a decent job of it and is able to communicate as well as " normal, UK citizen" would if I fall off the bed and need the tubes putting back in.

There is a quality of care angle, for sure, which is for the recruiters to stay on top of -but my low-tier medical person can be from Portugal or Poland or Prestatyn or Pitlochrie if you like. Last I heard the medical and teaching profession were complaining that nobody wanted to do some of the low end undesirable jobs at the bottom of the pay scale.

BucksLady

bowlhead99 wrote: »

Last I heard the medical and teaching profession were complaining that nobody wanted to do some of the low end undesirable jobs at the bottom of the pay scale.

That may be the case, but there is also a problem with recruiting doctors. My husband is a GP and his Practice has been trying to recruit a salaried doctor for over 9 months. Obviously this places terrible strain upon 'all' staff and provides a service to patients which is far from ideal. Added to this is the problem concerning the length of many consultations. Some patients require an 'interpreter' and consequently the consultation can be 'very' long.

aspiration_2

bowlhead99 wrote: »

Such "floods" are presumably not without "controls". The controls are put in place by the HR departments of the schools and NHS to ensure the workers are of sufficient quality. I don't really mind if I or my kids are wheeled around a hospital by a guy who doesn't have great grammar, as long as he does a decent job of it and is able to communicate as well as " normal, UK citizen" would if I fall off the bed and need the tubes putting back in.

There is a quality of care angle, for sure, which is for the recruiters to stay on top of -but my low-tier medical person can be from Portugal or Poland or Prestatyn or Pitlochrie if you like. Last I heard the medical and teaching profession were complaining that nobody wanted to do some of the low end undesirable jobs at the bottom of the pay scale.

I wish this was true. Again there is no clear statistics about this. Whether HR departments have any control over this is debatable. Most of these low skilled workers are employed by contractors and they seem to be able to get the state/local_govts to pay for huge number of cleaner type of staff. We did not have so many cleaners in the 1980s. I think there is a flood at present. It is way more than the indicated 200,000 a year. To service these excess staff you need more builders, catering staff etc. It looks like a pyramid. How long can it be sustained? 30 or 40 million (eastern) Europeans entering the UK? If it is sustainable (as claimed by the 'remainers') then why not allow millions of English speaking skilled staff from large countries like Russia, India, Brazil, Indonesia, China? A better bet for the UK.

bowlhead99

aspiration wrote: »

I wish this was true. Again there is no clear statistics about this. Whether HR departments have any control over this is debatable. Most of these low skilled workers are employed by contractors and they seem to be able to get the state/local_govts to pay for huge number of cleaner type of staff.

If the HR departments don't have any practical control because someone reallocated responsibility to a nameless faceless contracting firm that isn't held to account, that is a problem with the recruitment and resourcing practices rather than a problem which exists because of EU membership. As such, resigning from the EU is a heavy-handed response.

We did not have so many cleaners in the 1980s. I think there is a flood at present.

A lot can change in 30 years. Maybe we were just more accepting of things being dirtier back then. Or as the face of UK industry has changed and the person who was on a production line punching a hole in some grommet is now behind a computer screen in the service sector, there is more square footage of carpet to be vacuumed.

It is way more than the indicated 200,000 a year. To service these excess staff you need more builders, catering staff etc. It looks like a pyramid.

A pyramid of jobs and workers then, rather than scroungers? That's not so bad.

How long can it be sustained? 30 or 40 million (eastern) Europeans entering the UK? If it is sustainable (as claimed by the 'remainers') then why not allow millions of English speaking skilled staff from large countries like Russia, India, Brazil, Indonesia, China? A better bet for the UK.

I expect we don't want millions of skilled workers "coming over here taking all our [valuable and lucrative, skilled] jobs". We would rather fill those positions with home grown talent and only really want to give up the jobs we have less appetite to do ourselves.

Of course, if we do have a need for skilled engineers and doctors and other professions then our businesses would like to be allowed to reach beyond Europe into India or Russia or China or US to get them, if UK or Europe isn't providing the right candidate.

So, we have that system to allow selective immigration for people from far away, but we have an open door policy for our neighbours which was one of the prices "paid" for shared access to the wide European market which takes a monster amount of our exports and provides us with lots of products that we like, under common regulations and quality standards.

It is not fully "open door" of course because if someone comes here and can't get that cleaning job, he might need to go home because we won't be giving him benefits or subsidised housing.

discat11

buglawton wrote: »

Cos the poll result wasn't going where MSE's owners wanted it to?

another conspiracy theory, it's a new one to me though.

My personal favourite is for people to take their crayons to the polling station as pencil can be rubbed out and the vote changed.

:rotfl: