BREXIT - Why?

jimjames

colsten wrote: »

I am very happy with this sort of membership fee as I enjoy the benefits of being part of the club.

I think there's a general lack of understanding about what the EU does and has done in the past. Even now things are taken for granted without actually realising that it's EU derived. Things like being able to use a mobile phone anywhere in EU with no additional charges, being able to drive a car anywhere in EU without needing to take out additional insurance. Two very small things but it does strike to me as being a case of "what have the Romans ever done for us"

justme111

jimjames wrote: »

So if it's not negative then where's the issue complying? I'm assuming the lack of any example means it's another myth that EU are applying regulations affecting business but no-one seems able to provide any details.

Ok , everyone agrees regulations needed. Why can not they be done by a government of any particular country?

OldBeanz

jimjames wrote: »

I think there's a general lack of understanding about what the EU does and has done in the past. Even now things are taken for granted without actually realising that it's EU derived. Things like being able to use a mobile phone anywhere in EU with no additional charges, being able to drive a car anywhere in EU without needing to take out additional insurance. Two very small things but it does strike to me as being a case of "what have the Romans ever done for us"

I would have to pay extra if I took either of my cars outside the UK.
3 offered virtually all EU countries without additional charges and they were not flooded with customers. More interference and those not travelling in Europe will pick up the bill for a service they do not need.

bigadaj

If you'd asked me ten years ago then I'd have voted in, now I'm fairly certain I'll be voting it.

Why? Well it could be because of advancing years and conservatism but I think on balance that membership of the eu is not good for the country as a whole, though there are obviously good and bad points.

For big business and the city then eu membership is great, far less so for small businesses. For the wealthier in society it is better because of higher returns on investments, and worse for those further down the social scale who are competing with cheaper foreign labour.

Britain won't be able to keep its current status, the eu project must continue and you can't be partly in, just like you can't be a bit pregnant. The eu is undemocratic to a greater extent than most individual countries I and the tensions that exist across the widely differing countries will increase. A multi level eu would probably work, with a Northern European element, a Mediterranean element and an Eastern European part, which obviously won't occur. Turkeys seemingly inevitable accession, with potentially Ukraine, and you've got another 100 million plus people from poor backgrounds with unfettered access.

The profits made by big business from Europe membership seem to be outweighed by the additional social costs that the government and country absorb.

Dird

I will vote out but I know I will be on the losing side. Too many people are afraid of change, especially with almost daily scaremongering about their savings being wiped out & jobs lost. Take a bigger country (USA) and a smaller country (Singapore), both have big services industries & neither seems to be experiencing Armageddon as a result of selective immigration. The EU population is 500 million, by 2020 it could rise to 600 million with the expansion to 5 new countries. I would rather have skilled IT, finance, doctors from around the world. There are enough kebab shops in most towns, I don't really need more.
NATO & dialogue is what protects against war in EU, not the EU and it's expansion into Asia.
I worked in China, I had to apply for a work visa. If I wanted to work in Singapore, America, Dubai I'd have to do the same; it's no big deal. I don't mind doing the same for working in Germany/Switzerland. The majority of Brits only exposure to EU is just traveling which would still be visa free...and lazy pensioners living in Spain

Ballard wrote: »

What will the public think in those countries?

The average pleb would not give a crap if a country voted to leave the EU. If Italy voted to leave the EU would you be deeply offended? It's not like they insulted your mother.
We don't have a FTA with USA now, even in the EU...do you think your life is drastically affected by this? I still see huge number of iPhones/Ford Focus' rolling around

jimjames wrote: »

common sense says that leaving will be hugely disruptive and costly to our economy
Why would other countries accept that we can travel to them without hindrance but their citizens are unable to do the same in coming to the UK?

Singapore left Malaysia, they're doing OK
USA left the British Empire, they're doing OK
Bigger isn't always better. That's why large empires always collapse eventually, as will happen with the EU and the euro when the Turks invade for their pay rise from £2.50/hour to £9

Of course we can travel and so can they. Tourism is a money spinner: http://listabuzz.com/countries-british-can-travel-without-visa/

Ballard

You make some interesting points but pickings the USA as shining examples of a working country is a little optimistic. I see a country bordering insolvency but sticking their collective heads in the sand.

Also, Singapore were only part of Malaysia for a couple of years so that's not the best example of a country leaving a club and prospering.

I have to admit, though, that finding a country that has done well out of leaving a club is mightily difficult in this climate.

Reaper

bigfreddiel wrote: »

What sane person offers everyone a vote on doiing something, only to violently disagree! In my mind anyone doing this must be totally insane, or have extremely bad judgement liable to u-turn at the drop of a hat.

Taking that into account the only answer is most definitely to vote OUT.

Yes - take away power from Europe and give it to our... er... insane madman with poor judgement. :rotfl:

Reaper

I suppose I ought to do a proper post too...

There is a lot of nonsense being spouted from both sides which makes it hard to make rational decisions but a couple of points worth mentioning.

TTIP being forced on us by Europe - not true. Cameron has been an enthusiastic supporter, it is only the EU which has opposed it.

Immigration will be stopped if we leave Europe - I think people would be surprised. The UK will still be under pressure to accept a share of the many refugees from outside Europe. Perhaps more.

But the big question is what would replace the EU. We would be locked out of trading with Europe if we left unless a trade agreement is done to replace. The leave camp think we can negotiate all the same access but I doubt that very much. If the EU gave us good terms other countries might want to leave and do the same. I think far more likely the terms will be poor even if that harms the EU too as they need to discourage others leaving.

Leaving is a gamble. To me the odds look poor and the perceived benefits dubious.

Dird

Ballard wrote: »

You make some interesting points but pickings the USA as shining examples of a working country is a little optimistic. I see a country bordering insolvency but sticking their collective heads in the sand.
Also, Singapore were only part of Malaysia for a couple of years so that's not the best example of a country leaving a club and prospering.
I have to admit, though, that finding a country that has done well out of leaving a club is mightily difficult in this climate.

At this point many are teetering on insolvency with 5 EU countries with higher debt percentages than America. Before those levels you never heard anyone talking about living the Italian dream though.

And prior to Malaysia, Singapore was lumped in the British Empire so leaving a club and prospering is still valid; and the strongest example of it working given the focus on services (UAE etc aren't valid unless we randomly discover oil fields in Dorset).

Canada & Australia both left the empire, no disaster became of them. Instead they rank highly in various rankings on quality of living etc while accepting immigrants based on their ability & skills they provide rather than what passport they have

Macau broke away from the Portuguese Empire, now it's bigger than Las Vegas

To paraphrase Martin Luther: I have a dream. That one day, a man be judged, not by the colour of his passport, but by his ability and potential.

Everybody wants a better life. Is it wrong for a Pole to leave their home country to make more money on minimum wage here? No. But given the choice between the Pole and an Indian doctor/software developer contributing to the country I know which I would prefer

cloud_dog

I tend to believe that the in / out debate could really be summarised by two primary 'feelings':

1. The feeling that we are losing or have no control over our sovereignty; and that is the primary consideration
2. As a whole business, personal liberty (well being) has been enhanced by being in EU

Obviously, things are never black and white and there are many, many nuances that can also be applied / considered. I think it is the scale of these which makes trying to come to a fully appraised, holistic view almost impossible.