Tenants left - house disgusting - deposit dispute

dirty_magic

Is there an extractor in the bathroom and suitable heating? We had mould in our bathroom when we left that was impossible to keep on top of.

It wasn't because we didn't clean, it was embedded in the grout and silicone because there was no extraction and only a fan heater in the bathroom. We regrouted twice in 3 years. I'd have been annoyed if they'd taken some of our deposit for it.

rtho782

Your term of "I can give notice whenever I like, but the tenant cannot" is **clearly** an unfair contract term, no matter what the EA legal team says.

If the tenant were posting here before move out, I'd have been telling him not to leave as your notice was invalid.

[Deleted User]

If you had a clearer idea what the tenancy agreement said, you'd know what you were dealing with. The LA are only your agency.., it isn't really wise to take as much of a back seat as you have. I mean this nicely. You might find that the LA have given notice illegally.., and that could cause problems.., you just don't know at the moment. And I'm sorry, you shouldn't really just be taking the LA's word for it, to protect yourself, you should know.

It is possible that the mould could be due to a problem that has developed since you left the property. I know I was told that mould was due to me not opening the bathroom windows, although I did. Turned out it was due to a rotten roof (literally). But erm, its kind of easier to blame the tenant lol. But even if it is the tenants fault, you are going to have problems claiming for mould damage. I am going to be standing out here but to my mind, if a bathroom is properly designed with an adequate ventilator.., there shouldn't be a mould problem unless there's a massive leak somewhere.

rtho782

grendel666h wrote: »

I only stated that we could give notice whenever we liked, I never stated that the tenant cannot. The tenant was also able to give the same notice. It was the same for both parties.

It's unfair.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/284440/oft356.pdf

3.64 An assured shorthold tenancy that has no fixed term gives the tenant
security of possession for the first six months of their occupancy of the
property and a landlord cannot bring the tenancy to an end during that period
except by forfeiture (see above).

3.65 Landlords sometimes choose to use a 'break' clause allowing them to bring
the agreement to an end on service of two months' notice. We would object
to such a term if it was not balanced by a similar provision allowing the
tenant to give notice in the same way.

You did not have a corresponding break clause for the tenant.

Page 87 specificity gives this as an example of an unfair term:

The landlord may bring the tenancy
to an end at any time before the
expiry of the fixed term (but not
within six months of the
commencement date) by giving to
the tenant at least two months'
written notice stating that the
landlord requires possession of the
property. A notice under section 21
of the Housing Act 1988 will suffice
to implement this sub-clause.

Which seems to be exactly what you are describing.

Guest101

grendel666h wrote: »

Hi,

We've been renting our house to a couple for approx two years.
We rented through an estate agent and had a full inventory with photographs showing and stating that the property and everything in it was clean.

Sorry for the length of this email, but I want to make sure I mention everything that I think is relevant.

The tenants moved out a few weeks ago and the estate agent reported the following dilapidations :

1) Build up of mould and damp in a few rooms - Whats the cause? It could easily be something you needed to fix?
2) The oven, which was very clean a free from dirt/grease, etc, as shown in original inventory has been condemned by British Gas when they did their regular inspections - Condemned on what basis? Did you have annual safety checks?
3) The bathroom is full of mould. The grouting and sealant is mostly black and looks like it has never been cleaned. There is black mould on the ceiling and floor and pipework. - Again what's the cause?
4) Furniture has been left that wasn't there when they moved in. - Get written confirmation that you can dispose of this. In the meantime you must store it (you can dispose of it after a reasonable length of time)

Also, when we went in to inspect we found that the ceiling in the lounge was yellow/brown due to the tenant smoking in the house. He was told that he couldn't do this, but it was too late then, it was never cleaned. - Calculate the cost of making good the damage

We decided to sell the house and people were viewing it but the tenants were putting them off by claiming there was lots of problems with the property. - There were. You cannot charge for this. They are simply giving an opinion. You could've paid them to keep quiet. So, we contacted the estate agent to give notice to vacate. This was all done legally and they served a two month notice period and they actually had about two and a half months' notice. - What's a notice to vacate? That is meaningless. Presumably you mean a s.21 notice

We have put a claim in against the deposit for all of the above. However, the only thing the tenants accepts is the removal of the furniture. His arguments are :

1) The guttering leaked so water ran down the outside wall causing the damp in the rooms. The guttering problem was never raised with the EA or us and we were never informed of any damp/mould forming. - You did do regular inspections though. Yes they should've reported it, but equally you have a duty to maintain your property to a good level. I'd suspect he will say he did tell you and you didn't act.

2) The oven has been condemned by BG so cleaning it is not an option as it's not usable by anyone. It only got into that state due to neglect and them never cleaning it. - An oven doesn't get condemned simply because it is dirty.

3) They say that they were kicked out early (the tenancy would have come to a natural end at the end of April, but we served notice to vacate by the end of March). - What do you mean natural end?! A tenancy doesn't 'end' unless a court or the tenant decides to end it. Lets hope there was no illegal eviction. At any point, we could have served two months' notice - Could you? if he's in fixed term it would be meaningless., he never had the right to stay until the end of April if we requested him to vacate. - You're so wrong.... And they couldn't find time to clean the bathroom with two months? - irrelevant. Nevermind that they should have been cleaning it while they lived there! - Their choice, not yours.
Plus, we mentioned to the neighbours that we were thinking of replacing the bathroom, which has been fed back to the ex tenants (they have moved across the road), so they are now saying they won't pay for any cleaning, etc. as we're ripping it all out. The contract that they accepted and signed states that the property should be left in the state it was when they moved in (accepting fair wear and tear). So, even if we said we're knocking the house down, they have still breached the contract and they didn't know our plans when they left. - Right. But if you knock it down you've suffered no loss. So you cant.

After several discussions via the EA, this is now going to arbitration. - probably for the best.

The EA has the original inventory and the check out report with photographs, plus our photographs.

As we want to get it ready to sell as quickly as possible, we want to sort the bathroom, redecorate and replace all the carpets.

However, we still want to claim against the deposit.

So, how does arbitration work? Are we ok to sort everything out and still have the claim going through?
We are doing as much of the work as possible, so how do I put a cost on cleaning all the smoke residue? Is there a standard(ish) price for a deep clean? - get 3 quotes

Anything else I can do to help my case? - Depends on the eviction that happened I suppose.

Do you think I'm being unreasonable? - Again that depends how you evicted them

Thanks if you got this far!

You should be aware that you cannot end a tenancy.

AdrianC

grendel666h wrote: »

Really, why not?

Because all the landlord can ever do, legally, is issue a notice that they wish the tenancy to end.
For the tenancy to actually end, that notice has to expire, then the landlord has to get a court to require the tenant to leave, which can be enforced if required.

JencParker

grendel666h wrote: »

Originally Posted by grendel666h View Post


Really, why not?

It always astounds me how little 'landlords' know about renting property. Even I know the answer to this and I'm neither a tenant or a landlord.

AdrianC

grendel666h wrote: »

Well, we're not all as fortunate as you to know everything.

Mmm. If you're running a business, it's generally a good idea to be aware of the basic legal framework surrounding that business.

Guest101

grendel666h wrote: »

Originally Posted by grendel666h View Post
Hi,


1) Build up of mould and damp in a few rooms - Whats the cause? It could easily be something you needed to fix?
- Lack of cleaning, ventilation and heating, according to the EA. - Is the EA qualified to make such a claim? I doubt it


2) The oven, which was very clean a free from dirt/grease, etc, as shown in original inventory has been condemned by British Gas when they did their regular inspections - Condemned on what basis? Did you have annual safety checks?

- don't know on what basis, waiting to hear back. Yes, we did. - Well that is quite important, so ill park that issue until you know (don't ask the EA to diagnose this...)

3) The bathroom is full of mould. The grouting and sealant is mostly black and looks like it has never been cleaned. There is black mould on the ceiling and floor and pipework. - Again what's the cause?

- as 1) above - As above then, get someone qualified to check


4) Furniture has been left that wasn't there when they moved in. - Get written confirmation that you can dispose of this. In the meantime you must store it (you can dispose of it after a reasonable length of time)

- I have an email with the agreement. If I have to store it, I will need to make a claim for storage costs. - You would seek to recover those costs, either from the sale of the property (the money still belongs to the tenant even if you do sell it) or as you said, claim it via Small Claims or from the deposit if that is allowed by your tenancy

Also, when we went in to inspect we found that the ceiling in the lounge was yellow/brown due to the tenant smoking in the house. He was told that he couldn't do this, but it was too late then, it was never cleaned. - Calculate the cost of making good the damage

- A lot of time on our part. I'd need to find some quotes from contractors who do this. - Get 3 quotes

So, we contacted the estate agent to give notice to vacate. This was all done legally and they served a two month notice period and they actually had about two and a half months' notice. - What's a notice to vacate? That is meaningless. Presumably you mean a s.21 notice

- Probably, I'm not qualified in housing law, so left this to solicitors. - probably? It's YOUR neck on the line. It's not difficult, most landlords do this themselves. you cannot claim back the costs for using solicitors, it was not necessary and therefore not reasonable

We have put a claim in against the deposit for all of the above. However, the only thing the tenants accepts is the removal of the furniture. His arguments are :

1) The guttering leaked so water ran down the outside wall causing the damp in the rooms. The guttering problem was never raised with the EA or us and we were never informed of any damp/mould forming. - You did do regular inspections though. Yes they should've reported it, but equally you have a duty to maintain your property to a good level. I'd suspect he will say he did tell you and you didn't act.

- Every conversation he has had with the EA were recorded and there is no record of any reported problems. - Were they really? .... I doubt that somehow.

2) The oven has been condemned by BG so cleaning it is not an option as it's not usable by anyone. It only got into that state due to neglect and them never cleaning it. - An oven doesn't get condemned simply because it is dirty.

- You haven't seen how much grease/crap was in it. - if you say so

3) They say that they were kicked out early (the tenancy would have come to a natural end at the end of April, but we served notice to vacate by the end of March). - What do you mean natural end?! A tenancy doesn't 'end' unless a court or the tenant decides to end it. Lets hope there was no illegal eviction.

- Natural end : the contract was for two years, commencing April 2014. He didn't complain until after he moved out, so surely if he didn't think it was right he should have raised an objection as soon as the notice was served. - There is no end, the tenancy would simply become monthly. He can still complain and depending on how he was evicted. EG did you turn up and tell him to leave on the date, did you or your agents harass them, it could leave you facing criminal charges (it's unlikely, but you need to be clear on what actually happened)

At any point, we could have served two months' notice - Could you?

- Yes, according to the solicitors. - Are you sure these are actual solicitors? It's perfectly reasonable to have a break clause, but I haven't seen the wording so wont comment on it.

if he's in fixed term it would be meaningless., he never had the right to stay until the end of April if we requested him to vacate. - You're so wrong.... And they couldn't find time to clean the bathroom with two months? - irrelevant. Nevermind that they should have been cleaning it while they lived there! - Their choice, not yours.

- Partly, but they had a duty to keep the property clean, as per the contract. - that's not enforceable. How the property is whilst they live there is not your business. Only how it's returned.


Right. But if you knock it down you've suffered no loss. So you cant.

- Even though he breached the contract by not leaving the property in the condition they moved in? - absolutely. This type of claim is based on 'loss'. The cost of putting it right. You don't have to put it right, but if you are demolishing the property you haven't suffered a loss. If your selling, which you are, you might do as you would want to put it right before selling.

After several discussions via the EA, this is now going to arbitration. - probably for the best.

- Accepted. But we have tried to be reasonable.

We are doing as much of the work as possible, so how do I put a cost on cleaning all the smoke residue? Is there a standard(ish) price for a deep clean? - get 3 quotes

- Thanks.

Do you think I'm being unreasonable? - Again that depends how you evicted them

- They weren't evicted. We gave them two months' notice to leave, as stated in the contract that they agreed to and signed. - So you're saying they left voluntarily?



Really, why not?

Because the law says so. Please do more research on any future investments, as you could've landed yourselves in a lot of bother on this one.

AdrianC

grendel666h wrote: »

That's it, it's not a business.

<boggle>
YES, IT IS.

If you don't even understand that much, then you probably don't even realise just how steep a learning curve you should be facing.

Using an agent doesn't change the ultimate legal responsibility. You are renting to your tenant. The buck stops with you.