Unusual stair layout - would this pass regs?

ijrwe

I'm considering a two-storey side extension and have been snagged on the issue of how to turn the stairs to get to the proposed new rooms. There are three options I've found so far that work, and lots of others that unfortunately don't meet building regulations.

My favourite option so far, the only one that doesn't eat into the existing bedrooms somehow (e.g. to make a landing or to create a bulkhead) is shown below.
Do you think something along these lines would be approved of?

Existing on the left, proposed on the right:



I've never seen anything like it in practice.


I can't simply replace the existing left-turning kite winders with a square landing because there's not enough height then to get up to the existing bedrooms, you see.

Doozergirl

The idea is that something is easy to climb and has a good consistency and rhythm to it so you don't fall while negotiating them. There are minimum and maximum goings. I don't think that would be acceptable.

Scale is important and stairs aren't easy to design for lay people. I really think you need to engage someone to design this for you, or at least present us with dimensions and the upstairs and downstairs floorplan.

The fact that you are planning a whole extension does mean that the new side could be used for the stairs, however, putting a landing where the first winder is and then having two steps either side isn't going to affect room dimensions hugely. It's only a case of moving one non-structural wall down by about 40cm and pushing the room doors over.

There is certainly an acceptable answer. A better one than the strangest stairs anyone has ever seen, or a house with one massive storey and one tiny one.

I'm not sure why you've designed the rooms on the other side the way you have?! It only needs a landing with doors on the left and right.

ijrwe

Doozergirl wrote: »

The idea is that something is easy to climb and has a good consistency and rhythm to it so you don't fall while negotiating them. There are minimum and maximum goings. I don't think that would be acceptable.

Scale is important and stairs aren't easy to design for lay people. I really think you need to engage someone to design this for you,

The trouble is that the whole project hinges on the feasibility of this - if there is no good way to get stairs working then I may well just stick to a single storey, for example - so I'm reluctant to engage an architect unless I'm sure that it can be done... somehow.

The next best option is to create a bulkhead in one of the existing bedrooms, giving me headroom below to start the stairs "further back" and so end up higher by the time I reach the existing kite winders, and so have a square landing in their place. This is a lot more work and also, due to some knock-on effects (stairs too close to the front door at the bottom) would lose me more floorspace elsewhere, as well.

or at least present us with dimensions and the upstairs and downstairs floorplan.

Existing ground floor (left) and first floor (right):

http://i.imgur.com/8UVI5i9.png

Dimensions aren't on there but you can get the idea. The stairway is 830mm wide, roughly 210mm going.

The fact that you are planning a whole extension does mean that the new side could be used for the stairs.

I've looked into this but it would mean a great deal more work that I'm trying to avoid, and would lose me floor space where I want it without giving me much useful space elsewhere. If I can find a nimble way to adjust the existing stairs I think that will be best.

There is certainly an acceptable answer. A better one than the strangest stairs anyone has ever seen, or a house with one massive storey and one tiny one.

leveller2911

A local Joinery will be able to work out the stairs for you but the basic rules are minimum going 220mm (which is basically the width of the treads ) and the maximum rise is 220mm (riser height). But there are other regs that need to me complied with such as iirc bedroom doors must be at least 300mm from the top tread. The top "skew" winder on your plan def won't meet regs.You also need to have a minimum "bulkhead" headroom height of 2mts.

Lost to think about and its impossible for anyone to give you advice without actually being on site....

Have you considered having skew and kite winders at the bottom rather than the top of the stairs?.Looking at your plan it appears as though you could.If you intend to access the extension ground floor through a doorway under the stairs then you may not have enough height for a full door (1981mm).


Invite a couple of local joinery workshops round and they will be able to sort something out for you that complies.

Doozergirl

Agree that a joinery can do it.

I think that you are trying to put the horse before the cart. You are going to have to employ an architect, or at least some form of professional as your extension is almost certainly going to require planning permission. There are more rules than just building regs for stairs.

As a lay person you are not going to have the answers. This stuff is bread and butter for others and that is why you pay them to design you something that will give you the best value in terms of use of space and money.

You have to put money in somewhere to ensure that you're going to get it out at the end. It's nice that you're trying to think outside the box a bit, but your really quite unconventional approach to things is likely to find you struggling somewhere.

A few days work for a joiner giving you a conventional staircase with a bit of wall knocking is going to payback far more than any of the ideas you've presented so far

ijrwe

leveller2911 wrote: »

A local Joinery will be able to work out the stairs for you but the basic rules are minimum going 220mm (which is basically the width of the treads ) and the maximum rise is 220mm (riser height). But there are other regs that need to me complied with such as iirc bedroom doors must be at least 300mm from the top tread. The top "skew" winder on your plan def won't meet regs.You also need to have a minimum "bulkhead" headroom height of 2mts.

Lost to think about and its impossible for anyone to give you advice without actually being on site....Have you considered having skew and kite winders at the bottom rather than the top of the stairs?.Looking at your plan it appears as though you could.


Invite a couple of local joinery workshops round and they will be able to sort something out for you that complies.

Indeed, there's floorspace downstairs for that, but the problem there is headroom. I have only 2100mm headroom at the lowest point and I would need to bulge a bulkhead out into one of the upstairs rooms in order to get more.

ijrwe

Doozergirl wrote: »

Agree that a joinery can do it.

I think that you are trying to put the horse before the cart. You are going to have to employ an architect, or at least some form of professional as your extension is almost certainly going to require planning permission. There are more rules than just building regs for stairs.

As a lay person you are not going to have the answers. This stuff is bread and butter for others and that is why you pay them to design you something that will give you the best value in terms of use of space and money.

You have to put money in somewhere to ensure that you're going to get it out at the end. It's nice that you're trying to think outside the box a bit, but your really quite unconventional approach to things is likely to find you struggling somewhere.

A few days work for a joiner giving you a conventional staircase with a bit of wall knocking is going to payback far more than any of the ideas you've presented so far

I'm happy to apply for PP myself, that's easy - but yes I will have someone draw up proper plans for BC and so on, when the time comes. However, I need to know roughly how the stairs will work before I move much further forward, as it affects the whole of the project, including the external layout and everything. I may even forget the second storey altogether if it's too much trouble, and use the money elsewhere.


Unfortunately "a conventional staircase with a bit of wall knocking" seems quite out of the question, or I'd probably have figured it out by now - this isn't just a new idea off the top of my head. I've had two architects around so far and they both thought the only way was to eat up some of the existing bedrooms to make a large landing area. That may well be the only way.


It's just not in my character to stand back and let someone decide everything without my input, I can't do it! They'll not have the same concerns and considerations that I do.

Doozergirl

Erm. Okay then. You're trying to engineer the impossible because 'people don't think the same as you'. You're ignoring the advice of two architects and still thinking that a (more expensive) single storey extension (that umpteen people have told you is a bad move) is somehow a better option than taking professional advice or spending a little more in one area to save in another.

I'll presume you already understand the supplementary planning guidance provided by your local council with regard to building lines (particularly involving corner plots), privacy, amenity values, distances between the windows of habitable rooms, the number of parking spaces required for the number of bedrooms etc. and let you get on with it.

Thankfully, I trust myself to do the things I'm good at and am able to employ and collaborate(!) with people that know more than me about things that I'm not. I end up with fabulous results that I would not if I felt that I needed to come up with everything myself.

I'm going to sound harsh here, but everything so far has been really amateur. I would urge you to trust people to know better than you.

It may not be in your character, but your character is not going to get you a flowing, attractive extension.

ijrwe

Thanks for your feedback, Doozergirl. I recognise that you feel strongly about this issue but this is afterall a DIY forum and I'm afraid I like to think about things myself and hear from lots of different sources, including - as I mentioned - real, live architects. I find that it's most helpful to stick to the immediate topic and not worry too much whether or not I've thought about X, Y and Z unrelated matters. I assure you that the project is far wider and more developed than a few paragraphs on MSE forums may reveal.



I'll perhaps visit my local BC folk for a definitive answer about the stairs, I guess it's their decision in the end.

Doozergirl

It includes DIY. In brackets.

I'm all for people DIYing. The problems come when someone isn't particularly capable of doing something and it involves large sums of money.

That's when you end up buying cheap and paying dear.

ijrwe

Here's one that might be a bit better:



Existing // Proposed


There'd be a bulkhead in the (new) room below but that's no problem.