The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

of course scotland doesn't have a budget deficit
and of course NI doesn't have a budget deficit
and of course Wales doesn't have a budget deficit
and of the England doesn't have a budget defit.


handy that
but probably represents the thoughts of the finest SNP monds

Kabayiri was talking about blame games. Neither NI, Welsh or Scottish governments are 'to blame' in any way for deficits. They get fixed grants.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You've missed the point. The current narrative doing the rounds big time is that it's the Scottish Govt that has run up and is to blame for this current £15bn Scottish deficit. This is patently and demonstrably untrue. Do you agree ? Do you think the Scottish Govt have run up a deficit or not ?

There's also a difference between deficits when Scotland is independent and deficits while she is still part of the UK. Scotland IS still part of the UK, GERS reflects that. But you shouldn't conflate a deficit as part of the UK with a deficit as an independent country. Which is what a lot of people are actually doing, then trying to apportion blame onto an economically largely powerless Scottish Govt within the UK as if Scotland were already independent.

Scotland is not independent. Therefore blame apportioned to the Scottish Govt now for any £15bn Scottish deficit is complete nonsense. Do you agree with that ?

I'll need to re-read the GERS reports to accurately answer that.

At a guess, right now, I would presume that GERS is trying to take into account a proportion of the expenditure that the Scottish government doesn't control as well as that which it does, versus the amount of money that Scotland in isolation generates, and the difference between the two.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I'll need to re-read the GERS reports to accurately answer that.

At a guess, right now, I would presume that GERS is trying to take into account a proportion of the expenditure that the Scottish government doesn't control as well as that which it does, versus the amount of money that Scotland in isolation generates, and the difference between the two.

You don't need to read GERS. Scotland and the other devolved nations get a fixed block grant to spend on their areas of responsibility. They cannot run up any deficits ever mind 15 billion pounds of one.

GERS only becomes relevant when talking about a potential starting point in the context of Scotland becoming independent. And even then it negates negotiations, debts v's assets and differing political and economic choices that would be made subsequently. So no, GERS isn't really relevant to Scotland and any current deficit the Scottish Govt seems to be getting the blame for, despite it being completely outwith Holyrood's control. Do you agree ?

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You don't need to read GERS. Scotland and the other devolved nations get a fixed block grant to spend on their areas of responsibility. They cannot run up any deficits ever mind 15 billion pounds of one.

GERS only becomes relevant when talking about a potential starting point in the context of Scotland becoming independent. And even then it negates negotiations, debts v's assets and differing political and economic choices that would be made subsequently. So no, GERS isn't really relevant to Scotland and any current deficit the Scottish Govt seems to be getting the blame for, despite it being completely outwith Holyrood's control. Do you agree ?

There is no Scottish deficit in the respect that any money Scotland does or doesn't spend is UK money. That's a current benefit Scotland has by being part of the UK.

But as we've established, GERS is signed off by the Scottish government as a document that attempts to establish revenue vs expenditure in Scotland. In that respect the proportion of money spent on behalf of Scotland to maintain things such as defence, foreign office, regulatory bodies, welfare (DWP), etc.. and money spent directly in Scotland exceeds that which Scotland generates. So whilst Scotland itself doesn't have a deficit it contributes towards the overall UK deficit, presumably to the tune of £15bn.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You don't need to read GERS. Scotland and the other devolved nations get a fixed block grant to spend on their areas of responsibility. They cannot run up any deficits ever mind 15 billion pounds of one.

GERS only becomes relevant when talking about a potential starting point in the context of Scotland becoming independent. And even then it negates negotiations, debts v's assets and differing political and economic choices that would be made subsequently. So no, GERS isn't really relevant to Scotland and any current deficit the Scottish Govt seems to be getting the blame for, despite it being completely outwith Holyrood's control. Do you agree ?

I guess what Shakey means is "please don't read GERS".
Since all the figures are there.
Another attempt to distract from facts then.

Official Scottish government statistics showed the country spent £14.8bn more than it raised in taxes in 2015/16, including a share of North Sea revenue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37167975

What Shakey also does not say is that the sum allocated by Westminster is so generous partly as a result of the Barnett Formula. You will note that the SNP have not refused this extra sum - of over £200 per head of population above that which England receives.

Suggesting that Scotland does not run a defecit is therefore at best being disingenuous.

kabayiri

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Kabayiri was talking about blame games. Neither NI, Welsh or Scottish governments are 'to blame' in any way for deficits. They get fixed grants.

Yes. Across all political parties.

If you want to balance the books you need to spend less and earn more.

Your grant could increase by 20% and in a year's time the SNP would still be moaning, because that is what socialists do.

Try being positive. Consider what Nicola can do to ensure that Theresa May negotiates the best possible Brexit deal. If UK does well, then there is more chance of that 'grant' increasing, which might make you happy for a while.

kabayiri

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37167975

What Shakey also does not say is that the sum allocated by Westminster is so generous partly as a result of the Barnett Formula. You will note that the SNP have not refused this extra sum - of over £200 per head of population above that which England receives.

Suggesting that Scotland does not run a defecit is therefore at best being disingenuous.

Politics is disingenuous alas. It won't be the politicians who transform Scotland's economy. It will be true entrepreneurs if they are given the chance.

Shakethedisease

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

I guess what Shakey means is "please don't read GERS".
Since all the figures are there.
Another attempt to distract from facts then.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37167975

What Shakey also does not say is that the sum allocated by Westminster is so generous partly as a result of the Barnett Formula. You will note that the SNP have not refused this extra sum - of over £200 per head of population above that which England receives.

Suggesting that Scotland does not run a defecit is therefore at best being disingenuous.

We've been through GERS 1000 times on these threads in fact my opening post mentions it. We've all read it.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

There is no Scottish deficit in the respect that any money Scotland does or doesn't spend is UK money. That's a current benefit Scotland has by being part of the UK.

There is no Scottish deficit that any Scottish Govt has 'run up'. You agree with this then ?

But as we've established, GERS is signed off by the Scottish government as a document that attempts to establish revenue vs expenditure in Scotland. In that respect the proportion of money spent on behalf of Scotland to maintain things such as defence, foreign office, regulatory bodies, welfare (DWP), etc.. and money spent directly in Scotland exceeds that which Scotland generates. So whilst Scotland itself doesn't have a deficit it contributes towards the overall UK deficit, presumably to the tune of £15bn.

But again it's not a deficit that any Scottish Government has run up or has control over, and therefore isn't to blame for. Is this correct ?

GERS only comes into play when we're talking about independence. Kabayiri was talking about a £15bn deficit being run up while still in the EU and still within the UK. Talking about politicians playing blame games. I was simply correcting this notion that any Scottish Govt whoever it is, cannot in fact run up any deficit while in the UK. Do you agree ?

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

Yes. Across all political parties.

If you want to balance the books you need to spend less and earn more.

Your grant could increase by 20% and in a year's time the SNP would still be moaning, because that is what socialists do.

Try being positive. Consider what Nicola can do to ensure that Theresa May negotiates the best possible Brexit deal. If UK does well, then there is more chance of that 'grant' increasing, which might make you happy for a while.

But you see now that this 15billion pounds deficit cannot be laid at the door of any Scottish Govt ( and I was careful to say any Scottish Govt ) from 1997 until currently yes ?

I wasn't talking about anyone moaning or Theresa May. Adding a few side swipes into your post doesn't discount the overall point I was trying to make.