The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

Even disgraced Labour MP's are jumping ship. Interesting developments here from formerly hardline No voters. Wonder how many feel like Eric here.

In 2014, Scots voted 55-45 to remain in the UK. Many of us voted ‘No’ to independence because we were told – by UK politicians and EU officials alike – that remaining within the UK was our only hope of remaining EU citizens. Some of us actually were those very politicians! As it’s turned out, exactly the opposite was true.

From mid-August, ‘FromNotoYes.Scot‘ will be live. Our aim is to play our own small part in helping move the figure for Scots supporting Independence to over 60%. We believe this will enable the Scottish Government to deliver a second referendum which will in turn help to assure Scottish independence in Europe before the UK as we know it leaves the EU.

Long-term nationalists may say ‘I told you so’, and that seems fair enough. People moving from ‘No’ to ‘Yes’ need to be big enough to accept the point, have a bit of humility (and some of us have a lot more reasons than most to feel humility!), follow their lead and work together in Scotland’s interests against the dogmatic voices of the Scottish Brexiteers.

http://ericjoyce.co.uk/from-no-to-yes-scot/

( full article too long to post ).

mrginge

When do you think the referendum will be held?

beecher2

Is there an equivalent term for mansplaining to describe people based outside of Scotland explaining to us why it is very stupid of us to contemplate independence?

I hadn't seen the Eric Joyce site, thanks for that. This is key

At present, the tenet of post-independence referendum debate is characterised by an ‘SNP vs Not SNP’ frame of mind. For 60% to be exceeded, however, far more effort needs to be put into the ‘Independence vs Brexit’ debate

I'd add that it isn't about Nationalist vs unionist either and certainly isn't Scotland vs England as a few ill informed people on here seem to think. I really wish the Labour party would get on board and see the potential for protecting workers' rights and human rights, and promoting equality in an independent Scotland.

elantan

There was labour for indy last time round... I did find it awfy strange how they wernt utilised more at the time.

Leanne1812

Yes, it's very interesting listening to the newcomers try and save us from ourselves isn't it?

I think they forget we've been having this debate for quite a long time now and recent events have made support grow rather than dissipate.

To know Hamish, one of thee most staunch unionist posters on here would vote Yes ( albeit conditionally) and know that he is far from alone in his thinking is heartening for Indy2 should it materialise. My feeling is it will though when that will be is anyone's guess. Certainly we'll need to wait until article 50 is invoked.

beecher2

I was gobsmacked when I read that Hamish would support Yes. Most people I know who votes Yes started off as Nos - I remember having a heated debate in Belfast of all places with someone telling me we had to get independence and me being vehemently against it. Seems a lifetime ago but it is perhaps why I feel annoyed at being dismissed as a nationalist and the lack of understanding about the reasons why we want independence.

elantan

We're you a no voter as well Beecher?

If so what changed your mind ?

If you don't mind sharing

.string.

A lot of speculation all over.

Here's some more;

France, inspired by Marine Le Pen, voting to leave the EU next year and joining with the UK plus others in a new trade block.

On the Referendum, all Theresa May has to do is refuse to sanction it, declaring it illegal on the grounds that it is not in the best interests of the UK, as determined in a UK-wide democratic (and legal) referendum. If the SNP went ahead with some sort of poll, it would be nullified with the help of Unionists in Scotland, fostering a number of constitutional and legal challenges, and therby effectively preventing any other country being prepared to engage in any discussion whatsoever with an illegal SNP regime.

Cue for chest-beating bleating and whingeing.

TrickyTree83

.string. wrote: »

A lot of speculation all over.

Here's some more;

France, inspired by Marine Le Pen, voting to leave the EU next year and joining with the UK plus others in a new trade block.

On the Referendum, all Theresa May has to do is refuse to sanction it, declaring it illegal on the grounds that it is not in the best interests of the UK, as determined in a UK-wide democratic (and legal) referendum. If the SNP went ahead with some sort of poll, it would be nullified with the help of Unionists in Scotland, fostering a number of constitutional and legal challenges, and therby effectively preventing any other country being prepared to engage in any discussion whatsoever with an illegal SNP regime.

Cue for chest-beating bleating and whingeing.

lol well done, I hadn't thought about playing them at their own game of make believe. :T

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Leanne1812 wrote: »

To know Hamish, one of thee most staunch unionist posters on here would vote Yes ( albeit conditionally) and know that he is far from alone in his thinking is heartening for Indy2 should it materialise. .

beecher2 wrote: »

I was gobsmacked when I read that Hamish would support Yes.

Just before any of you get too excited about my conversion- I can't emphasis enough how much I hate the idea of an Indy Scotland - to the point that I would feel physically sick having to vote for it.

I feel far more British than I do Scottish.

I firmly believe that Scotland should not be independent from the UK and that we'll be worse off if we are, just as I firmly believe the UK should not leave the European Union and we'll be worse off if we do.

If forced to choose between two absolutely awful scenarios, a permanently poorer and diminished UK outside the EU and more importantly single market, or a permanently poorer and diminished Scotland outside the UK but still in the EU, I'd choose the iScotland in the EU.

To be clear, the level of short to medium term pain for Scotland in that scenario would be little short of spectacular - but that's better than the death by 1000 cuts we'd endure staying with the UK as it sank into irrelevance over decades outside the Single Market.

Most people I know who votes Yes started off as Nos

........

the lack of understanding about the reasons why we want independence.

I absolutely don't want independence and hope a deal can be done that doesn't force our hands.

But that deal must include full single market access and unrestricted freedom of movement for Scotland.

As much as I hate to say it, Sturgeon's red lines are spot on, lets hope she has the courage of her convictions when it comes to deal time.