The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

tatartan wrote: »

You use the phrase "our union". Out of curiosity, what exactly does the independence movement need to do to be "allowed" to ask the scottish people if they want to remain part of it and is that even a union? Surely a member of any union can decide to leave at any time? The UK didn't need permission to legally hold a referendum to leave the EU, so why in your view, should Scotland require it to vote to leave the UK. If the UK voted to remain, should it have been tied to the UK for a muddy amount of time open to interpretation by the EU, should the EU have the option of denying that hypothetical referendum?

In my eyes that is no union, only in name. The scottish people are sovereign under scots law. By hook or by crook we will have our say, and no man or woman, especially a tory, toff and resident outwith Scotland will get away with saying otherwise. Boris is damaging the union every day he denies a vote. The polls will show this in the coming months just wait and see.

I really can't see how democrats can defend this stance? The go to argument is to reference the 2014 referendum, but if you were actually in Scotland and part of the debate, you would know that the No campaign (to stay in the UK) relied heavily on the "vote no to stay in the eu" argument. How can anyone deny that has now been proven to be a pure lie. Not to mention the vow and promise of devo max.

Well said ! 'Permission', 'allowed' 'no mandate'.. the very reason we need out of this 'union'.

The UK government has said that it will not allow the Scottish Parliament to call an independence referendum even if the SNP win an outright majority of seats in next year's Scottish Parliament election. In light of that decision, which of these two statements is closest to your own view of democracy in the UK?
The UK is no longer a fully democratic country: 49%
The UK is still a fully democratic country: 39%

With Don’t Knows removed, approximately 56% of respondents say that the UK is no longer fully democratic, and only 44% disagree. Remarkably, as many as 14% of respondents who would vote No in a new referendum appear to feel that the denial of a Section 30 has implications for democracy.

Tromking

tatartan wrote: »

And don't you forget it! Why would a nationalist view it as anything else? strange statement to make. Should I view it as a parliament that will cease to exist and another will form when independence comes?

I also take a dislike to the choice of including the word "current". The scottish parliament should not be going anywhere even if against all my expectations that we should vote to remain in the UK after a second referendum. I'm curious, do you see the scottish parliament is something that could be closed? There will NEVER be a mandate for that from Scotland.

Even Nats need to base their expectations of its parliament on reality. The competency that allows Scots to vote on its independence does not sit at Holyrood. That fact may irk people like you who are determined to force a minority view on the whole of Scotland, but most Scots seem happy with the situation that gives our National Government at Westminster the power to decide.
Just think how chaotic Scotland would be if every time the SNP won a Holyrood election they could call an independence referendum, especially when they fail to win at least 50% of the popular vote every time.

mollycat

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

Yet another of the SNP's finest falls short of what could be expected.

Imagine the frothing on here if that was a WM politician.

Why Scots keep voting for people like this amazes me.

fun4everyone

Thrugelmir

mollycat wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

Yet another of the SNP's finest falls short of what could be expected.

Imagine the frothing on here if that was a WH politician.

Why Scots keep voting for people like this amazes me.

Not the only story of the day. Seems any stunt will be pulled to achieve the goal.

baldelectrician

Tromking wrote: »

Even Nats need to base their expectations of its parliament on reality. The competency that allows Scots to vote on its independence does not sit at Holyrood. That fact may irk people like you who are determined to force a minority view on the whole of Scotland, but most Scots seem happy with the situation that gives our National Government at Westminster the power to decide.
Just think how chaotic Scotland would be if every time the SNP won a Holyrood election they could call an independence referendum, especially when they fail to win at least 50% of the popular vote every time.

There is another point on the mandate

People forget the claim of right signed by Labour and the Fib Dems which stated sovereignty laid with the Scottish people

baldelectrician

mollycat wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

Yet another of the SNP's finest falls short of what could be expected.

Imagine the frothing on here if that was a WM politician.

Why Scots keep voting for people like this amazes me.

He was right to resign, he should also resign as an MSP and force a by election

mollycat

What amazes me is that a sizeable minority in Scotland regard Scottish politicians, (read SNP politicians), as ",good"; trustworthy, decent, people like themselves, ect.....simply because they are from Scotland.

Walk 10 feet across the border and these same people regard politicians as "bad"; greedy, self serving abusers of trust.

Completely illogical obviously, but fits the narrative of Scotland being "ruled" by persons of a less flavoursome moral fibre than Scots are themselves.

Hopefully recent events will show this minority that you are as likely to vote for someone using their polictical influence and power for dubious ends north of the border as much as anyplace else in the UK.

Herzlos

mollycat wrote: »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51397956

Yet another of the SNP's finest falls short of what could be expected.

Imagine the frothing on here if that was a WM politician.

Why Scots keep voting for people like this amazes me.

Bad people should be removed from authority, which he has been. Presumably he'll stand down as MSP too.


The frothing about WM politicians is that if they are in the Tory party, they almost always get suspended and then re-hired a few months later. It's as if they tolerate this stuff internally (Thatcher apparently hired sex pests as cabinet because she could control them better) but know it's politically unwise to admit to it.


It's the double standard that annoys me.


It will be interesting to see how much they use this as a stick to beat the independence movement with.

Enterprise_1701C

baldelectrician wrote: »

There is another point on the mandate

People forget the claim of right signed by Labour and the Fib Dems which stated sovereignty laid with the Scottish people

Parliament cannot bind its successors, so it is irrelevant, and it has never had any legal force anyway.