The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Actually it was from your post-brexit polls.

Should Scotland be an independent country? (Survation, online, 24th-28th June)
Yes 53% (+5)
No 47% (-5)


Following the result of the UK's referendum on membership of the European Union, where the UK voted to leave, which of the following statements is closest to your opinion?

Scotland should hold a second independence referendum : 47%
Scotland should not hold a second independence referendum : 42%

And perhaps more significantly, there is overwhelming support for Nicola Sturgeon's view that it would be "democratically unacceptable" for Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against its will...

Following the result of the UK's referendum on membership of the European Union, where the UK as a whole voted to leave but Scotland voted to Remain, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said that it was "democratically unacceptable" that Scotland faced the prospect of leaving the EU. To what extent to you agree or disagree with the comments made by the First Minister?

TOTAL AGREE : 52%
TOTAL DISAGREE : 33%

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2016-06-30T18:42:00%2B01:00&max-results=10&start=10&by-date=false

And lets wait for the realities of 'democratic unacceptabilities' to sink in a little further shall we. Still, it's looking more and more likely that Article 50 will be kicked further and further down the road isn't it.

Theresa May will not trigger article 50 of the Lisbon treaty initiating the UK’s departure from the European Union before the end of 2016, the high court has been told.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/19/government-awaits-first-legal-opposition-to-brexit-in-high-court

mwpt

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Just like leaving the EU, the breakup of the UK affects everyone in the UK.

Agree?

In the same way people from outside the UK had their say on the EU referendum, surely people within the UK but outside of Scotland also have a horse in this race and the absolute balls that the SNP and their supporters peddle needs to be called out.

No, that doesn't make sense.

To be equivalent your argument should be that every European Union citizen should have been able to vote on brexit since it impacted all of us.

.string.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Not entirely surprising given they're already in negotiations with the EU for a free trade agreement...

So Scotland won't have to choose between remaining in the EU/Single Market and a free trade deal with Australia.

We'll have both.

Or, were Shakey's scenario of a Referendum to pan out, neither.

TrickyTree83

mwpt wrote: »

No, that doesn't make sense.

To be equivalent your argument should be that every European Union citizen should have been able to vote on brexit since it impacted all of us.

No, where did I say the rest of the UK should be able to vote on Scottish independence?

Edit: How the hell do you get thanks for implying I said something I didn't. Bloody crazy this thread is.

Never have I said the rest of the UK should be voting on Scottish independence.

Never have I said the rest of the EU should have voted on the UK leaving the EU.

But since both votes will have an affect on others are they not allowed to air their view? They did in the EU referendum.

Whats your point?

Shakethedisease

baldelectrician wrote: »

I was talking to someone about just this voting system recently


It has been mooted that the SNP could NOT stand in the list in certain areas (areas where they are likely to get in on FPTP) thus allowing other parties (non-SNP affiliated ones) to scoop up the list seats.


Think about it- if the SNP get 90% of the constituency seats and then other YES affiliated parties mop up the 48% of the pro-SNP plus 20% of the pro Indy votes then you could be looking at the next Scottish Parliament having a 70% pro indy majority.

I heard that mooted at the time, that the SNP shouldn't stand in list seats as it splits the vote too much. Is a risky strategy though given how unpredictable the system is. And look what happened when a Green stood in a constituency seat. It split the pro-indy vote and presented Ruth Davidson with her seat. The Green got a seat anyway via the list.

A very hard system to game with tactics and given how unreliable polls have been lately. But mabye worth a shot at some point.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Or, were Shakey's scenario of a Referendum to pan out, neither.

You mention me in every post you make. I'm flattered.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2016-06-30T18:42:00%2B01:00&max-results=10&start=10&by-date=false

And lets wait for the realities of 'democratic unacceptabilities' to sink in a little further shall we. Still, it's looking more and more likely that Article 50 will be kicked further and further down the road isn't it.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/19/government-awaits-first-legal-opposition-to-brexit-in-high-court

http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Post-Brexit-Scottish-Attitudes-Poll.pdf

Page 5.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2016-06-30T18:42:00%2B01:00&max-results=10&start=10&by-date=false

And lets wait for the realities of 'democratic unacceptabilities' to sink in a little further shall we. Still, it's looking more and more likely that Article 50 will be kicked further and further down the road isn't it.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/19/government-awaits-first-legal-opposition-to-brexit-in-high-court

Lets talk about democratic unacceptabilities shall we.

You know that vote in 2014, the one where the electorate clearly knew about the EU referendum vote in advance and accepted that as a risk and voted to remain a member of the UK. Is it ok for that to be overturned on the basis of a referendum on UK membership with the EU? Do the views of millions of Scots who told you and others like you "No" in 2014 not matter?

Two referendums have been held in 2 years, and the SNP and Scottish nationalists (if they're even different) want to overturn them both.

THAT is democratic unacceptability.

TrickyTree83

What about this then.

http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0049/00493251.pdf

Just in case you don't believe me, search the document for this:

Rest of UK exports account for 64% of all exports from
Scotland (international and rUK combined).

You've not responded.

And what about the bullet points I posted earlier in the thread. No answers to any of them?

Not only is your argument for a vote on shakey ground but the argument about which way to vote is clearly skewed against Scottish independence.

Edit:

I went and found the bullet points for you.

iScotland in the EU

- £15bn deficit in current running costs
- loss of Barnett funding (circa £24bn)
- more powers than devo max, overruled by EU regulation
- North Sea oil currently propped up by UK taxpayers will need to be paid for, or face job losses
- migration of UK jobs from Scotland
- loss of UK based contracts
- adoption of the Euro and exposure to bailout funds
- increased import costs (cost of living)
- EU membership fee
- adoption of the Schengen agreement of no internal borders
- further integration with EU members on defence, foreign policy and fiscal management to make the Euro work
- a hard border with the rest of the UK
- if no deal is reached between the UK and the EU then Scotland could be exposed to tariffs with its largest trading partner
- if businesses choose to leave the UK, out of all the 27 28 member states is Scotland really the #1 destination?
- reduced public spending, end of free HE tuition and prescriptions or higher taxes?

We can now add Trident benefits to the Scottish economy being lost.

Lets hear the Scottish nationalist answers to the above please.

kabayiri

Once the EU situation has been concluded, shouldn't we all get a say in what the future Union inside the UK looks like?

It does seem like there some disgruntled people south of the border as well as in Scotland.

A resounding vote for independence from each of the 4 members of the Union would be hard to ignore.