The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

Shaka_Zulu wrote: »

Shakey think you need to check in with HQ and find out what the party line is in indyref2 at the moment. Doesn't sound as if it is being passed down to the faithful.

I know what the line is thanks.

Get this GE over with, then go for it during the EU Brexit ratification voting period. Unless May walks out of talks well before that first.

Yah_Boo_Sux

mayonnaise wrote: »

We need some kind of age verification thingy on this forum....

If we combine it with intelligence testing a few will be gone, won't they?

Shaka_Zulu

COMMENT: STURGEON NOW IN FULL RETREAT ON REFERENDUM

The prevailing mood in Scotland, as in the rest of the UK, is to give Brexit a chance to work.

When Nicola Sturgeon announced in March that she was seeking the power to hold a new referendum on independence, there were anxious mutterings within the SNP. A common concern was: “I hope she isn’t painting herself into a corner.”

Well, this week the first minister stepped out from the corner, walked across the wet floor and clip-clopped down the hall, leaving high-heeled footprints in sticky paint behind her.

Nobody puts Nicola in the corner.

Ms Sturgeon is in full retreat on a second referendum. And her willingness to back away from such a talismanic policy raises a question in my mind. Is it possible that the idea of a second referendum might yet be quietly dropped?

We have just witnessed a handbrake U-turn that has scorched political rubber. In March, at the SNP’s spring conference in Aberdeen, Ms Sturgeon was admirably clear. “There will be an independence referendum,” she said, to euphoric cheering from the faithful. Yet this week, interviewed on BBC Radio Scotland, Ms Sturgeon seemed less sure. Indyref2, she said, was a matter of “if” not “when”. Pressed on what currency Scotland would use after independence, she said: “Look, when we come to an independence referendum — if we come to an independence referendum — these issues will be subject to the greatest of scrutiny.”

Yah_Boo_Sux

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

I thought the picture would help visualise misrepresentation.
what a great evening, elsewhere in the news

Scottish unemployment falls below UK rate



Well done the SNP, keeping Scotland working

Well done UK, for encouraging Scots to work.
Now if you could just increase their GDP to match .................

cogito

Shakethedisease wrote: »

An election is perfectly legal, and what's more Westminster transferred the powers to make it so last year. As well as full control over the franchise ( ie 16-17 year olds, EU nationals etc

So if it's that simple, why was it necessary for Sturgeon to ask Westminster's permission to hold a referendum? If she has the power, surely she can use it.

Fact is, she doesn't. Having control of the electoral process is not the same as getting a reserved power handed over.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

.string. wrote: »

Hamish - what is your opinion on the following:

The SNP were elected into government at Holyrood with a clear statement in their manifesto that they reserved the right to call another indyref if the UK voted to leave the EU.

The UK then voted to leave the EU while Scotland voted by a clear majority to stay in the EU. The SNP have been true to their word and the Scottish parliament has now voted for another Indyref.

The terms of any post Brexit trade deal are of no relevance in this matter - we already know with 100% certainty any future trade deal will be worse than the one we have today as part of the single market - so there's no need to delay beyond 2018 or early 2019.

This is really about a much more fundamental question - should Scots have their EU citizenship, their right to live and work in 27 other countries, their rights and protections under EU law, taken away from them against their will by English voters.

And as we already know that is the inevitable outcome of Brexit - and no trade deal can ever change that - it is then imperative to hold a referendum as soon as possible, so as to minimise the amount of time Scots will be deprived of those rights should they vote for Indy, and therefore to transition back into the EU.

Thrugelmir

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Well done the SNP, keeping Scotland working

How many jobs have the SNP created by virtue of their own policies?

Shakethedisease

cogito wrote: »

So if it's that simple, why was it necessary for Sturgeon to ask Westminster's permission to hold a referendum? If she has the power, surely she can use it.

She's following the same blueprint laid down as Salmond/Cameron last time so she can't be accused of doing anything that's not strictly by the book. May's going to have to come out with a big flat-out No. Which isn't the best look for a lot of Scottish voters.

Fact is, she doesn't. Having control of the electoral process is not the same as getting a reserved power handed over.

One thing at a time. Let's get a vote first, and should the Scots vote to leave the UK. May again is free to say No, but it will be of little consequence by then since most Scottish MP's will have packed their bags for home and a majority of Scots ( obviously since it was a Yes vote ) won't recognise Westminster's legitimacy anymore.

.string.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

The SNP were elected into government at Holyrood with a clear statement in their manifesto that they reserved the right to call another indyref if the UK voted to leave the EU.

The UK then voted to leave the EU while Scotland voted by a clear majority to stay in the EU. The SNP have been true to their word and the Scottish parliament has now voted for another Indyref.

The terms of any post Brexit trade deal are of no relevance in this matter - we already know with 100% certainty any future trade deal will be worse than the one we have today as part of the single market - so there's no need to delay beyond 2018 or early 2019.

This is really about a much more fundamental question - should Scots have their EU citizenship, their right to live and work in 27 other countries, their rights and protections under EU law, taken away from them against their will by English voters.

And as we already know that is the inevitable outcome of Brexit - and no trade deal can ever change that - it is then imperative to hold a referendum as soon as possible, so as to minimise the amount of time Scots will be deprived of those rights should they vote for Indy, and therefore to transition back into the EU.

Thanks for the reply:
First a little correction: whatever the legitimacy may be argued for the SNP mandate regarding a referendum, they did not have a parliamentary majority and relied upon the Greens to back them who did not have a mandate. So to be picky, the parliamentry mandate is questionable.

The eventual deal will unquestionably still embody a right to work in the EU and vice versa. The main issue on free movement boils down of to a freedom to live and work but not a freedom to live and not work. I can easily see compromises around that issue which is one reason that May needs her increased majority. Other reasons include her ability to compromise against the wishes of extremists in the Brexit hard core. She needs a majority to get such things through Parliament against the resistance of single minded pressure groups. That's what we as a nation are paying her for.

The bottom line is that we do not know the deal and it is political vandalism to insist on this or that end result all in the name of independence at any cost.

You may recall I was very much a remainer since with 1 exception (a cousin) my complete family lives in Europe (Denmark, Holland and Spain) but sometimes you win and sometimes you loose, and yes I've lost money on the A Brexit thing already. But that's Democracy for you. Had the Scots held the casting vote I am certain there would not have been a comparative hooh haah in England, having predominantly been for Brexit, about being thwarted by the Scottish Vote.

But anyway I think you are wrong, and morally wrong, in supporting the SNP plan to deny Scots the information they need and deserve. Like it or not at least half of Scotland wants that information and whatever your reasons for wanting to leave, the ends can never justify losing and cheating to achieve them.

Shakethedisease

Shaka_Zulu wrote: »

COMMENT: STURGEON NOW IN FULL RETREAT ON REFERENDUM

The prevailing mood in Scotland, as in the rest of the UK, is to give Brexit a chance to work.

When Nicola Sturgeon announced in March that she was seeking the power to hold a new referendum on independence, there were anxious mutterings within the SNP. A common concern was: “I hope she isn’t painting herself into a corner.”

Well, this week the first minister stepped out from the corner, walked across the wet floor and clip-clopped down the hall, leaving high-heeled footprints in sticky paint behind her.

Nobody puts Nicola in the corner.

Ms Sturgeon is in full retreat on a second referendum. And her willingness to back away from such a talismanic policy raises a question in my mind. Is it possible that the idea of a second referendum might yet be quietly dropped?

We have just witnessed a handbrake U-turn that has scorched political rubber. In March, at the SNP’s spring conference in Aberdeen, Ms Sturgeon was admirably clear. “There will be an independence referendum,” she said, to euphoric cheering from the faithful. Yet this week, interviewed on BBC Radio Scotland, Ms Sturgeon seemed less sure. Indyref2, she said, was a matter of “if” not “when”. Pressed on what currency Scotland would use after independence, she said: “Look, when we come to an independence referendum — if we come to an independence referendum — these issues will be subject to the greatest of scrutiny.”

She's moving the GE campaign onto Brexit and the Tories instead of indy ref2. Scottish Labour are now finding out the dangers of running campaigns in elections which have nothing whatsoever to do with the election at at hand ( running council elections on a no indy ref basis )...

Kezia Dugdale‏Verified account 2h2 hours ago
Labour has just suspended all 9 councillors in Aberdeen. Full statement below

https://twitter.com/kezdugdale/status/864880089607147520

"As a result, there are currently no councillors in office in Aberdeen representing the Labour Party.". This is what happens when you start inserting constitutional politics into local council elections. Dugdale's losing control of her party.

This GE is about Westminster, the SNP would be well advised to stick to that for the next few weeks, sit back and let Davidson make an a**e of herself again with her one policy as well as defending a Brexit she was telling everyone in Scotland would be a total and utter disaster last year.