Were we right to walk out?

bod1467

naedanger wrote: »

I will repeat what I originally said that you took issue with and led to this rather long and ultimately unfruitful discussion.

If the person intended to pay later then it would not be against the law. [Note the word if. I am not saying the person did in fact intend to pay later. I am simply saying if they intended to pay later then they would not be guilty of "making off".]

I am still of the same view.

But without evidence to the contrary (that they did indeed intend to pay later), then the act of leaving without paying and without expressing such intent would make any prosecution case quite easy. And as devil woman has said already (I think) such prosecutions have indeed been made.

ItsJordannn

Of course you weren't right to walk out.

Personally I've never heard of anyone eating their food then walking out of a restaurant because it was too busy to pay straight away. If you really had to leave why not just go and stand by the till, then ask passing members of staff to take your payment?

Walking out is crazy in my opinion.

naedanger

bod1467 wrote: »

But without evidence to the contrary (that they did indeed intend to pay later), then the act of leaving without paying and without expressing such intent would make any prosecution case quite easy. And as devil woman has said already (I think) such prosecutions have indeed been made.

Do you agree that the burden of proof is on the prosecution and that the prosecution needs to prove not only that the person left without paying but that they did so with the intent of dishonestly avoiding payment?

If not please say so.

Assuming you do agree with what needs to be proved and by whom, then I think it depends on the full circumstances. It is because everyone will have a different view of what these other circumstances were that makes it so difficult to discuss hypothetical examples.

In a real case there would be less uncertainty over the circumstances. We would probably have witnesses (including the accused) and probably some staff (e.g. to confirm or deny that getting to pay was very difficult). Would the accused's assertion they made efforts to pay be supported, how convincing would each witness be? Had the accused offered to pay before being challenged after leaving? If not how long had passed? And so on.

If for example the accused had first got in touch and offered to pay before they were challenged by anyone then I would have thought it very unlikely the prosecution would have it easy unless there were other damning circumstances (e.g. the person had done the same thing in a few other restaurants, did not follow through on their offer to pay, or other witnesses disputed that the person really did make efforts to pay and so on.)

If however the person agreed they left knowing they had not paid, but said they intended to do so, but had not done so when they were challenged a couple of weeks later then in those circumstances I could see that a jury might conclude it was beyond reasonable doubt that the person had left without paying, intended to avoid payment, and was dishonest and so was guilty. (Of course I could add other circumstances to my hypothetical example that could sway things back in the other direction.)

To consider the op's case. If they are being honest and did intend to pay later then they would not be guilty. However I think they were unwise as they knowingly opened themselves up to accusations of having made off and in a worst case could find themselves found guilty (e.g. if witnesses dispute their version of events).

daytona0

naedanger wrote: »

Do you agree that the burden of proof is on the prosecution and that the prosecution needs to prove not only that the person left without paying but that they did so with the intent of dishonestly avoiding payment?

If not please say so.

Assuming you do agree with what needs to be proved and by whom, then I think it depends on the full circumstances. It is because everyone will have a different view of what these other circumstances were that makes it so difficult to discuss hypothetical examples.

In a real case there would be less uncertainty over the circumstances. We would probably have witnesses (including the accused) and probably some staff (e.g. to confirm or deny that getting to pay was very difficult). Would the accused's assertion they made efforts to pay be supported, how convincing would each witness be? Had the accused offered to pay before being challenged after leaving? If not how long had passed? And so on.

If for example the accused had first got in touch and offered to pay before they were challenged by anyone then I would have thought it very unlikely the prosecution would have it easy unless there were other damning circumstances (e.g. the person had done the same thing in a few other restaurants, did not follow through on their offer to pay, or other witnesses disputed that the person really did make efforts to pay and so on.)

If however the person agreed they left knowing they had not paid, but said they intended to do so, but had not done so when they were challenged a couple of weeks later then in those circumstances I could see that a jury might conclude it was beyond reasonable doubt that the person had left without paying, intended to avoid payment, and was dishonest and so was guilty. (Of course I could add other circumstances to my hypothetical example that could sway things back in the other direction.)

To consider the op's case. If they are being honest and did intend to pay later then they would not be guilty. However I think they were unwise as they knowingly opened themselves up to accusations of having made off and in a worst case could find themselves found guilty (e.g. if witnesses dispute their version of events).

Can you submit this post as part of your Law degree?

CKhalvashi

naedanger wrote: »

I will repeat what I originally said that you took issue with and led to this rather long and ultimately unfruitful discussion.

If the person intended to pay later then it would not be against the law. [Note the word if. I am not saying the person did in fact intend to pay later. I am simply saying if they intended to pay later then they would not be guilty of "making off".]

I am still of the same view.

Although how do you prove that OP was/wasn't dishonest?

In that situation, I'd have left a business card with something like 'call to arrange payment' scribbled on it at the till, however the fact is that many people don't carry business cards around, so I'm assuming that a piece of paper with a similar note/phone number would have sufficed in these circumstances.

Leaving without leaving any contact details is IMO dodgy as to leaving oneself open to problems further down the line, and therefore OP's actions probably weren't the best in the cirumstances, discounting law but looking at the real world.

andyca

CKhalvashi wrote: »

In that situation, I'd have left a business card with something like 'call to arrange payment' scribbled on it at the till, however the fact is that many people don't carry business cards around, so I'm assuming that a piece of paper with a similar note/phone number would have sufficed in these circumstances.

I have done exactly this at an Airport terminal pub, It was very understaffed I asked for the bill several times and on the final time I was told I would need to wait as the card machines were not working and they were "being rebooted". My flight was on final call so I briefly explained to a bartender, left my business card with something like "call me tomorrow for bill payment" on the back, and I never heard from them again!

This was about 10 years ago now, so I'm very pleased to read I can finally sleep easy. :beer:

shezzone

Boy this opened a burrito of worms!
My son has been in touch with the company. This was their reply:


Thank you for contacting us to tell us about your recent visit to the above restaurant.

We are sorry that you were disappointed with the level of service you received on this occasion. Our aim is to provide our guests with a positive dining experience, however from the information you have provided, we have clearly failed in our goals to achieve this.

Your information has been passed to the Area Manager responsible for the restaurant, who will be personally reviewing your complaint with the management team. To ensure the specific issues you have raised regarding the speed of service are addressed, they will investigate the matter fully. With regards to the front of house computer, staff have been reminded to ensure that this is locked when not in use.

As a gesture of goodwill, we have attached a voucher as a way of apologising. This can be used at any of our restaurants at your convenience. Please ensure you are able to show a member of our team a copy of the voucher when you visit.

Please rest assured all guest feedback is treated very seriously and the restaurant management team will work closely with the Area Manager to resolve the issues you have raised ensuring we deliver a positive dining experience on your next visit.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. Guest feedback is vital and assists us in providing a better service to all our guests.

Yours sincerely,



Guest Services Team



Thanks for your input.

wealdroam

shezzone wrote: »

Boy this opened a burrito of worms!
My son has been in touch with the company. This was their reply:


Thank you for contacting us to tell us about your recent visit to the above restaurant.

We are sorry that you were disappointed with the level of service you received on this occasion. Our aim is to provide our guests with a positive dining experience, however from the information you have provided, we have clearly failed in our goals to achieve this.

Your information has been passed to the Area Manager responsible for the restaurant, who will be personally reviewing your complaint with the management team. To ensure the specific issues you have raised regarding the speed of service are addressed, they will investigate the matter fully. With regards to the front of house computer, staff have been reminded to ensure that this is locked when not in use.

As a gesture of goodwill, we have attached a voucher as a way of apologising. This can be used at any of our restaurants at your convenience. Please ensure you are able to show a member of our team a copy of the voucher when you visit.

Please rest assured all guest feedback is treated very seriously and the restaurant management team will work closely with the Area Manager to resolve the issues you have raised ensuring we deliver a positive dining experience on your next visit.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. Guest feedback is vital and assists us in providing a better service to all our guests.

Yours sincerely,



Guest Services Team



Thanks for your input.

It looks like that is based on you having paid the bill.

Have you paid the outstanding bill?

DaftyDuck

I hope they haven't - yet! They've got a voucher to spend towards it, now!

Mojisola

shezzone wrote: »

Boy this opened a burrito of worms!
My son has been in touch with the company. This was their reply:

Thank you for contacting us to tell us about your recent visit to the above restaurant.

We are sorry that you were disappointed with the level of service you received on this occasion. Our aim is to provide our guests with a positive dining experience, however from the information you have provided, we have clearly failed in our goals to achieve this.

Your information has been passed to the Area Manager responsible for the restaurant, who will be personally reviewing your complaint with the management team. To ensure the specific issues you have raised regarding the speed of service are addressed, they will investigate the matter fully. With regards to the front of house computer, staff have been reminded to ensure that this is locked when not in use.

As a gesture of goodwill, we have attached a voucher as a way of apologising. This can be used at any of our restaurants at your convenience. Please ensure you are able to show a member of our team a copy of the voucher when you visit.

Please rest assured all guest feedback is treated very seriously and the restaurant management team will work closely with the Area Manager to resolve the issues you have raised ensuring we deliver a positive dining experience on your next visit.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. Guest feedback is vital and assists us in providing a better service to all our guests.

Yours sincerely,
Guest Services Team

Did you actually tell them that you walked out without paying or just complained about the slow service?