Were we right to walk out?

hollydays

Was every person in the group( three? ) happy and in agreement about the walking out without paying? A simple touch on the arm of staff whizzing by would have attracted their attention.

hollydays

shezzone wrote: »

Thankyou for your reply everybody. We have been back in touch with the, apparently it takes 4-7 days to reply (ironically). There are other factors involved which I didn't mention and we are awaiting their response. I have also made my point clear on their Facebook page. Short of standing in the doorway with a Mariachi band there was little likelihood of gabbing anybody's attention that night. This was not an isolated event that evening as I also read on their Facebook page. If you do wish to dine at this chain of restaurants I suggest you don't book. They leave your data page open to the public on their booking screens. This point has also been raised with them. I can understand how some of your comments may have made us look like swag bagging thieves. We aren't. You weren't there that evening. We are in contact with them. I'll keep you posted.

You've not actually mentioned their name have you?
If you are only bringing up the other issues after the event, it seems you should perhaps have raised them at the time?

BrentMeister

Silver-Surfer wrote: »

Difference there is the cashier is processing payments and it would be reasonable to wait in the queue to pay. Not doing so and making off would make it dishonest.

Just like it would be reasonable to go and approach any number of waitresses or goto the bar etc

Silver-Surfer_2

BrentMeister wrote: »

Just like it would be reasonable to go and approach any number of waitresses or goto the bar etc

Read the OP they found a member of staff, were taken to the till and waited 20 minutes to pay. Sounds to me a little different to your scenario.

neilmcl

Silver-Surfer wrote: »

Read the OP they found a member of staff, were taken to the till and waited 20 minutes to pay. Sounds to me a little different to your scenario.

I suggest you have another read of the OP yourself. After receiving the bill they waited 20 mins at their table. They then went to the till themselves and waited 5 mins before leaving.

takman

shezzone wrote: »

Thankyou for your reply everybody. We have been back in touch with the, apparently it takes 4-7 days to reply (ironically). There are other factors involved which I didn't mention and we are awaiting their response. I have also made my point clear on their Facebook page. Short of standing in the doorway with a Mariachi band there was little likelihood of gabbing anybody's attention that night. This was not an isolated event that evening as I also read on their Facebook page. If you do wish to dine at this chain of restaurants I suggest you don't book. They leave your data page open to the public on their booking screens. This point has also been raised with them. I can understand how some of your comments may have made us look like swag bagging thieves. We aren't. You weren't there that evening. We are in contact with them. I'll keep you posted.

You really need to improve your communication skills!. Why didn't you actually talk to the people in the restaurant. Instead of just staying at staff you could have used your voice to tell them you need to leave so want to pay now.
It's even worse that you haven't gone back to the restaurant or rang them up so you get an immediate response.
When I have been in a busy restaurant and want to leave I simply say "excuse me" to the nearest member of staff then "can I have my bill I will also pay right now by card". So you pay as soon as you get the bill and don't need to wait.

Simply talking to someone would have sorted this entire situation. Even simply stopping a member of staff and saying "excuse me I'm leaving now so I need to pay immediately" will have gotten a response.

Silver-Surfer_2

neilmcl wrote: »

I suggest you have another read of the OP yourself. After receiving the bill they waited 20 mins at their table. They then went to the till themselves and waited 5 mins before leaving.

Well 25 minutes waiting to pay, it's not like they've eaten and legged it. Sounds like a reasonless amount of time to wait. After all if it was so busy surely they'd want to turn the table round for the next customer.

neilmcl

Silver-Surfer wrote: »

Well 25 minutes waiting to pay, it's not like they've eaten and legged it. Sounds like a reasonless amount of time to wait. After all if it was so busy surely they'd want to turn the table round for the next customer.

Not reasonable to wait no, but entirely unreasonable to get up and leave without paying when it could have quite easily be resolved had the OP actually approached a member of staff and demand they take payment forthwith rather than to sit around waiting for something to happen.

unholyangel

naedanger wrote: »

You have not answered my questions. Was I wrong, as you previously stated, when I said "If the person intended to pay later then it would not be against the law"?

If I was wrong why are you now saying intent not to pay and dishonesty (amongst other elements) need to be proved.

I will repeat what I have been saying all along "the law currently requires intent not to pay before someone can be found guilty of making off without payment. It is therefore the prosecution's problem to prove an accused person did intend to avoid payment beyond reasonable doubt. The accused does not need to prove they lacked this intent."

I am surprised you seem to think it is for the accused to prove they intended to pay rather than for the prosecution to prove they intended not to pay. I do not believe both the written law and Lord Hailsham's summary of it would have got such a basic and obvious point wrong.

I have not commented on the specifics of the op's case other than to set out what needs to be proved for them to be guilty of making off. So I don't know why you are going into them now other than to divert attention from the discussion over whether or not the law currently requires intent not to pay before someone can be found guilty of making off without payment.

I didn't directly answer it because its a silly question. In court it always comes down to what you can prove. Which is why I went through the circumstances with you and pointed out when the prosecution has evidence (even circumstantial) and the defence has only their say so, they are likely to be convicted. I believe the conviction rate in cases covered by the theft act is 80%. Yet you seem to think its more probable they wouldn't be convicted.

As for the part in bold, you're giving away how little you know of the legal system. The defendant - of course - doesn't need to put forth a defence if they do not wish to. But not to do so is extremely risky and increases the chance of conviction in most cases. In order to establish facts in case, you need to provide supporting evidence of them. In certain criminal cases, the defendant can also have an evidential burden.

I have no idea how you think me discussing intent is trying to divert the attention away from the discussion over intent.

I would seriously advise looking at other sources for information of the law rather than just taking the limited case summaries available on the sixthformlaw website as gospel without context.

unholyangel

neilmcl wrote: »

Not reasonable to wait no, but entirely unreasonable to get up and leave without paying when it could have quite easily be resolved had the OP actually approached a member of staff and demand they take payment forthwith rather than to sit around waiting for something to happen.

They seemed perfectly capable of speaking to staff to order and ask for the bill. One wonders why that suddenly changed when payment was due to be made.