Hacker Classic vs Systemat

ryder72

MDF fully primed and lacquered is perfectly fine for kitchen doors and is probably one of the best non wooden door kitchen options. Problem is most people just arent willing to pay for this. The German manufacturer we deal with will double prime, double lacquer a matt lacquer door. If its a gloss door then then varnished and buffed. Each stage is very manual and this puts the price up.

Then someone comes along with a rubbish vinyl wrap at a fraction of the price and the consumer goes crazy to buy the product at a fraction of the price.

We happily hand out our suppliers names and indeed hand out branded brochures to clients and I am happy to share this with you on PM if you like. I cant understand why anyone wouldnt want to. After all if you need to be so secretive about your supplier why are you working with them?

DIY have an online business model and have to put their pricing online. But they also have a very limited and simplified list of units/items they offer. This is not to say there is anything wrong with this approach but it will inherently limit what they offer. I dont know if they can for instance offer a 375mm door. Or appliance housing without infills above appliances. By the necessities imposed on the business model, they need to keep it simple. German manufacturers inherently offer more flexibility and I cannot see how their catalogues can possibly go online. Our German manufacturer offers 1 handles and 3 handleless systems in 2 standard carcase heights with 3 plinth height options. In 8 price groups. I cannot see how this level of complexity can ever go online. Also, Omega and Mereway, probably the 2 largest UK companies also dont publish their prices online.

In terms of specification, we (CK and I) have always said the carcase material is the same as are the manufacturers of drawer/hinge systems. Most basic German manufacturers will use 16mm carcases, basic blum drawer boxes and hinges. The better ones will use 18/19mm carcases, higher spec Blum or Grass drawer boxes/hinges. Most German manufacturers offer ABS edged carcases. This is still a rarity with UK manufacturers. The main difference is in the standard specification and flexibility. WHile I say this, I dont deny that the top end German brands are to an extent about the branding, but that applies everywhere.

I genuinely dont know how much information you are seeking is online, but I do take into account this information while assessing a manufacturer.

This thread as many before has gone far off topic, but if you really want to find out a bit more, PM me and I will happily share information with you.

shomoo

Thanks for the insights Furts and others. Just to clarify some questions and residual doubts, some additional information.
@Furts: if not MDF doors what do you suggest? The carcasses are chipbord anyway. Apparently hacker uses 16mm carcass with high quality chipboard (nearly the higherst grade) and sourced from Switzerlnd which supposedly makes the best chipboard and their carcases + doors are water resistant/proof apparently
1. MDF doorfront- my understanding was MDF is much better than Laminates any day. This as per some other forum links. Also the MDF I am plnning in Hacker is either Satin lacquer (6000) or Satin lacquer (5007/5020/5035) range.
The descriptions are: 6000 - The base material is a MDF board coated on both sides with a paintable priming paper. The edges are smoothed, sealed and fillerised in a special process. The fronts are coated in satin lacquer. Structured lacquers make an important contribution to protecting the environment. The water-soluble lacquer system is virtually solvent-free and, of course,contains no formaldehyde. Exposure to UV light produces extremely tough, first-class
lacquered finishes that are highly resistant to chemicals and withstand any amount of
wear and tear. Satined lacquer is distinguished by its elegance and high degree of light
fastness.
5007/5020/5035 - The base material is an MDF panel enclosed in a thermoplastic film that is suitable for lacquering. The back is lined with a paintable priming paper. The fronts are coated in satin lacquer on all sides. Satin lacquer make an important contribution to protecting the environment. The water-soluble lacquer system is virtually solvent-free and, of course,contains no formaldehyde. Exposure to UV light produces extremely tough, first-class
lacquered finishes that are highly resistant to chemicals and withstand any amount
of wear and tear. Satined lacquer is distinguished by its elegance and high degree of light
fastness.
I obviously can't read between the lines!
2. The wood effect one I have looked are essentially 2 of them: either Laminate with Melamine fronts or Veneer real wood fronts. The veneer rel wood ones are described as : The fronts are additionally varnished on both sides with a mat 2 component varnish.
Only waterproof dispersion adhesives are used. Stains are used to achieve the desired
surface colour. Polyurethane-based varnish is applied to seal the surfaces. The veneered
materials consist of engineered wood products which are coated with a thin real wood
layer and processed with a certain finish (stain, white-washed, etc.) according to the
chosen surface. We only use wood products, especially the real wood veneered materials
from responsible sources. It is ensured that our products do not include wood from illegal
felling. Furthermore we obtain our wood from sustainably farmed forest stands.
The wood pattern of fronts with veneer can misalign within the cupboard fronts.
Reclamations due to misaligned wood and structure pattern are not warranted.

A few other points to clarify:
MDF - I will check the strength and density and intend to ask the g/cu m to the supplier although have a feeling he will direct me to a sales rep.
Systemat vs Classic: I still don't understand the reason for premium if it is only bout choice of colours and some more custom options and slightly bigger cabinets. Our kitchen layout is very standard simple design with standard cabinets and wall units. So available in both classic and systemat including the colours if we choose to stick to simple colours
Looking for some more great insights guys..

shomoo

ryder72 wrote: »

Hi leveller-

The premium on German kitchens is a bit confusing. I havent come across an English kitchen supplier that can offer the level of detail and flexibility that the Germans can. I work with an English kitchen supplier myself and they are well respected. They do some contemporary ranges but I wouldnt buy it for my own house and I dont recommend it to clients either. For starters they are more expensive plus they are missing the level of flexibility and detail. If you can show me an English supplier that can offer the same detail/flexibility and quality at the same price point , I will switch. I have said this for years and I think so has CK.

Now look at bog standard English kitchens lacking the detail and flexibility and compare them to the basic German suppliers (who still offer the flexibility) and you will find that the Germans are dearer by a maximum of 10-12%. Most retailers find that the reliability of supply, ease of ordering and doing business with the Germans compared to English suppliers as an additional benefit.

I really do think that it is a myth that German manufacturers are expensive. BTW, I am excluding the sheds from this conversation as I really do think their quality is pants.

Hi
I initially thought german kitchens would be expensive. I got a quote from Wren Linda Barker range and it turned out to be more expensive than Hacker systemat. And to me in naked eyes, as a layman with some structural knowldege Hacker (a mid level german kitchen) had same/better quality than Wren LB.
Hope tis explains why I looked at german kitchens finally.

shomoo

ryder72 wrote: »

MDF fully primed and lacquered is perfectly fine for kitchen doors and is probably one of the best non wooden door kitchen options. Problem is most people just arent willing to pay for this. The German manufacturer we deal with will double prime, double lacquer a matt lacquer door. If its a gloss door then then varnished and buffed. Each stage is very manual and this puts the price up.

Then someone comes along with a rubbish vinyl wrap at a fraction of the price and the consumer goes crazy to buy the product at a fraction of the price.

We happily hand out our suppliers names and indeed hand out branded brochures to clients and I am happy to share this with you on PM if you like. I cant understand why anyone wouldnt want to. After all if you need to be so secretive about your supplier why are you working with them?

DIY have an online business model and have to put their pricing online. But they also have a very limited and simplified list of units/items they offer. This is not to say there is anything wrong with this approach but it will inherently limit what they offer. I dont know if they can for instance offer a 375mm door. Or appliance housing without infills above appliances. By the necessities imposed on the business model, they need to keep it simple. German manufacturers inherently offer more flexibility and I cannot see how their catalogues can possibly go online. Our German manufacturer offers 1 handles and 3 handleless systems in 2 standard carcase heights with 3 plinth height options. In 8 price groups. I cannot see how this level of complexity can ever go online. Also, Omega and Mereway, probably the 2 largest UK companies also dont publish their prices online.

In terms of specification, we (CK and I) have always said the carcase material is the same as are the manufacturers of drawer/hinge systems. Most basic German manufacturers will use 16mm carcases, basic blum drawer boxes and hinges. The better ones will use 18/19mm carcases, higher spec Blum or Grass drawer boxes/hinges. Most German manufacturers offer ABS edged carcases. This is still a rarity with UK manufacturers. The main difference is in the standard specification and flexibility. WHile I say this, I dont deny that the top end German brands are to an extent about the branding, but that applies everywhere.

I genuinely dont know how much information you are seeking is online, but I do take into account this information while assessing a manufacturer.

This thread as many before has gone far off topic, but if you really want to find out a bit more, PM me and I will happily share information with you.

Thanks Ryder72. I will pm you. Please see my other post with details of the hacker door range I'm planning. it seems they are MDF fully primed and lacquered. But then they are in both classic and systemat range. Hence I still can;t figure out the differences b/w to range to justify the 15% cost uplift. All the designers have said is Systemat has better quality - when I am trying to delve into it a lot of things are same for our choice of design with std cabinets , drawers - for example - carcasses , door MDF quality are same in both, if we choose std magnolia or white then both ranges do the same colour and same finish. So what is the difference? Dust seals, and a few other differences in the drawer config etc?

ryder72

OP - Your Hacker dealer has fed you a load of nonsense.

A. There are 2 dominant European players and they dont have any factories in Switzerland.
B. The doors you mention are lacquered on foil. Call is lacquer lite if you will but thats the market Hacker sits in so thats the only way they can offer a lacquer door at an attractive price point. You are moving away from the risks of a foil wrap. The lacquer coat just reduces the risk slightly.

shomoo

ryder72 wrote: »

OP - Your Hacker dealer has fed you a load of nonsense.

A. There are 2 dominant European players and they dont have any factories in Switzerland.
B. The doors you mention are lacquered on foil. Call is lacquer lite if you will but thats the market Hacker sits in so thats the only way they can offer a lacquer door at an attractive price point. You are moving away from the risks of a foil wrap. The lacquer coat just reduces the risk slightly.

Thanks that's interesting. do you hv any view on the Linda Barker range MDF lacquered door then? are they also lacquered on foil or better or worse?

Furts

I am going to leave you in the capable hands of ryder72. Whilst we disagree on items this leads to informed debate and I respect the knowledge and judgements.

I will comment on a couple of broader issues. You are being offered a Hacker kitchen. This has a mediocre carcass - many are available in 18mm and the doors you are talking about include vinyl wrapped. In addition your dealer has fed you a load of nonsense. I agree with ryder72 on this. All this prompts the question "Why have you not dressed down the dealer and shown them the door?" I would have done so and in no uncertain terms!

The other point is the Wren kitchen. Unless I was offered a realistic price and realistic quality they too would have received a stern, loud dressing down - preferably for other customers to hear - and I would have walked out of the showroom.

I have yet to meet any independent kitchen retailer that is neither a con business, nor a BS business, nor an ignorant business. Here the exclusions are ryder72 and CK - but I have not met them. But the principle is ordinary consumers with ordinary kitchens should avoid independents.

The likes of Wren, B&Q, Wickes, and Homebase are similar and no better than independents. The problem is the consumer approaches them without a firm, cool, commercial head, and without expecting to control the negotiation that has to ensue. The calibre of professionalism, enthusiasm and knowledge at such places is at best, mediocre, so go forward with this in mind.

ryder72

My recommendation is to steer well clear of Wren, possibly even if they give you the kitchen for nothing. Wren is all sales fluff and the quality is DIRE. Go to Howdens and with the right trade discount atleast you are paying the right amount of money for what you will end up with.

I said earlier - why are you talking to a dealer that gives you two quotes but cannot substantiate what makes one better than the other. What sort of confidence does that build in such a business?

shomoo

Furts wrote: »

I am going to leave you in the capable hands of ryder72. Whilst we disagree on items this leads to informed debate and I respect the knowledge and judgements.

I will comment on a couple of broader issues. You are being offered a Hacker kitchen. This has a mediocre carcass - many are available in 18mm and the doors you are talking about include vinyl wrapped. In addition your dealer has fed you a load of nonsense. I agree with ryder72 on this. All this prompts the question "Why have you not dressed down the dealer and shown them the door?" I would have done so and in no uncertain terms!

The other point is the Wren kitchen. Unless I was offered a realistic price and realistic quality they too would have received a stern, loud dressing down - preferably for other customers to hear - and I would have walked out of the showroom.

I have yet to meet any independent kitchen retailer that is neither a con business, nor a BS business, nor an ignorant business. Here the exclusions are ryder72 and CK - but I have not met them. But the principle is ordinary consumers with ordinary kitchens should avoid independents.

The likes of Wren, B&Q, Wickes, and Homebase are similar and no better than independents. The problem is the consumer approaches them without a firm, cool, commercial head, and without expecting to control the negotiation that has to ensue. The calibre of professionalism, enthusiasm and knowledge at such places is at best, mediocre, so go forward with this in mind.

Thanks Furts. What would be your suggestion in the mid-range German kitchen if not hacker? How do you rate Schroeder, Hacker, Leicht, Alno in order of price to quality?

Wilczek

Hi All,

I am interested in this thread too (Hacker Classic vs Systemat, on indeed vs "Other"), as we are replacing our kitchen as part of wider renovation works.

We've been to Magnet and seen their "Newbury Grey" range (they were recommended by our builder), and it has come out more expensive than a Hacker kitchen from an independent. Interestingly, the independent only wanted to say the kitchen was "German made". On further questioning, it turns out it is Hacker (he gave us some brochures, so I actually worked it out).We were then quoted based on the "Classic" range....which came out cheaper than Magnet. All fine there...the quality in the showroom looked better than that of Magnet.

Where it gets strange, is that when I asked to see the AV235 "Lava Grey" doors (a "Satin Lacquer") on the designs, I was told that these were for the Systemat range...we'd only been given brochures for the Systemat range, and weren't told there were two ranges!

He's now said the quality of the ranges is identical, and the Classic just has a smaller range of doors, and is only available in standard German sizes. The Systemat range giving around 10% more storage due to increased depths and wall unit heights.

As has been mentioned above, and also on many other sites and threads here, this is absolute nonsense!

So, careering back to square one, we are looking at Sheraton (we weren't taken with the quality at all), Hacker (Classic or Systemat), or Magnet... or, we open up the search further, to look at Schuller and others. Our budget isn't big enough (I think) for a real premium kitchen, so mid-range is where it is at, but the conundrum is where is the value?

Oh, and where do get a simple design... ;-)