Hacker Classic vs Systemat

Furts

shomoo wrote: »

Thanks all of you. I think I'm decided on going for hacker as against benchmarx, Wren Linda Barker etc. Really liked the finish for hacker (Alno for similar finish is more expensive)
My dilemma is still choosing b/w Systemat and Classic.
Fro example, if the same finish (satin lacquered base + wood finish wall units for 2 tone) and colour choice is available in Classic and Systemat , what is the difference in quality of finish, material etc . Will it be worth paying the extra 10% or 15% for systemat, if I can find the same colour and finish in Classic?

It is your choice but I will offer a couple of suggestions. These are just common sense, practical points widely known to those in the construction industry.

Your question should not be about the laquer finish, but about what is this finish applied to. If the material is MDF then I would not have it in my kitchen. Think carefully on this - do you want your "quality German" doors made out of compressed waste paper?

Your other question should be about the "wood finish". This suggests a coating of stick on plastic on chipboard. Chipboard is recycled fencing and pallets from your local recyling centre . This, of course, takes the gloss of advertising images of "quality German" kitchens.

In the interests of a balanced argument almost all mass produced kitchens will be made from chipboard. Further, some of this will be virgin timber and not re-cycled. But it is just chippings, compressed and glued together. It is a dirt cheap commodity sold at vastly inflated margins when it has been turned into kitchens.

Ryder72 and CK Designer offer good advice. Both sing the praises of German kitchens. My stance is these kitchens are fine, but for the vast majority of UK consumers they are an over priced irrelevance. Purchasing one is akin to burning vast wads of £50 notes.

However if you are looking at a swish city centre apartment aimed at young professionals, or an expensive West London home a German kitchen is deemed a requirement.

Hope this helps.

leveller2911

Furts wrote: »

Your question should not be about the laquer finish, but about what is this finish applied to. If the material is MDF then I would not have it in my kitchen. Think carefully on this - do you want your "quality German" doors made out of compressed waste paper?

For what reason Furts?. I can't think of any reasons why not to consider MDF in a kitchen.

In the interests of a balanced argument almost all mass produced kitchens will be made from chipboard. Further, some of this will be virgin timber and not re-cycled. But it is just chippings, compressed and glued together. It is a dirt cheap commodity sold at vastly inflated margins when it has been turned into kitchens.

Agree...........

Ryder72 and CK Designer offer good advice. Both sing the praises of German kitchens. My stance is these kitchens are fine, but for the vast majority of UK consumers they are an over priced irrelevance. Purchasing one is akin to burning vast wads of £50 notes.

The advantage German kitchens have over UK ones is they are more flexible as often mentioned on here. If a customer needs a 375mm wide unit they will make them one but the volume UK producers won't and when you consider the modern manufacturing methods with computerised CNC machining there is no reason why they can't make a customer a "bespoke" sized unit. The UK volume manufacturers have been lazy in that respect.

The quality of German kitchens (often mentioned on here too) is no better whatsoever than UK ones. If German kitchen prices are on a par with the standard UK market then I don't see any reason why people shouldn't buy a German one.

However from my experience German ones cost a premium so as long as people realise they are paying a premium for the same quality of product then I'm fine with that.Its their choice afterall but I do get so tired with people posting how German kitchens are better quality than UK ones when the facts are they aren't. I think much of it is down to snob value "I've just had my new German kitchens installed and its fantastic".

People like to make a point of how its different from a UK one but as we know this is down to ignorance or the product but if it makes them happy they that has to be a good thing.

However if you are looking at a swish city centre apartment aimed at young professionals, or an expensive West London home a German kitchen is deemed a requirement.

Yes but as we know the "London set" are a bit "different" from the rest of the UK public.....;)

ryder72

Your guidance would have been more lucid if you stated the trade price for this item is "x" and the trade price for that item is "y". To this you would add whether these trade prices are subject to discounts and rebates. This would then give a truly informed debate and be in full compliance with a money saving ethos.

Instead you have said 15%. I am suggesting this ducks the question and also overlooks whether this with, or without, the addition of VAT.

Furts - A trade price is a recommended retail price less trade discount. There may or may not be a rebate. I said the difference is about 15%. What part of this isnt clear? If Classic costs 100 retail then systemat is 115 retail. Subject both to trade discounts, rebates. Whether VAt is quoted or not the difference is always 15%. Simples.

OP did not ask me the price of a specific item else I may be been able to be specific down to decimals. I am not a Hacker retailer and he didnt ask for this level of information. If you are as knowledgable as you claim to be about kitchens, you should know that the difference is 15% does not apply to each and every item. Some are more. Some are less. It averages at about 15% and that is generally sufficient for most people.

I was also very specific when I mentioned that a retailer may apply more markup on one range over the other. Thats their prerogative. To put a negative and derogatory slant on every independent kitchen retailer in the land is just plain out of order. All you are doing is muddying the water for those seeking straight advise.

For this reason, I will refrain from answering to any more of your posts and its a waste of my time. You have you opinion and you are entitled to it.

ryder72

shomoo wrote: »

Thanks all of you. I think I'm decided on going for hacker as against benchmarx, Wren Linda Barker etc. Really liked the finish for hacker (Alno for similar finish is more expensive)
My dilemma is still choosing b/w Systemat and Classic.
Fro example, if the same finish (satin lacquered base + wood finish wall units for 2 tone) and colour choice is available in Classic and Systemat , what is the difference in quality of finish, material etc . Will it be worth paying the extra 10% or 15% for systemat, if I can find the same colour and finish in Classic?

Its a shame your retailer has chosen not to explain the differences between the two ranges. You should be questioning what value they are adding to the process.

All I can say is that there are differences.

Furts

leveller2911 wrote: »

For what reason Furts?. I can't think of any reasons why not to consider MDF in a kitchen.

Kitchens are areas of drips, spills, condensation and humidity. My issue is with mdf doors in these circumstances. As a side issue I do not believe they are particularly robust, nor will they stand the abuse some consumers choose to inflict on them.

Vinyl wrapped mdf doors are a disaster area in kitchens because the vinyl can lift and peel. However matters are not helped by having mdf as the underlying product. I would never have an mdf door in a kitchen and I do not advise others to have them.

There are countless defective window cill boards in the UK. These are mdf - all were claimed to be moisture resistant when installed, but the reality is the consumer has received defective dross. As human beings we are capable of better than this when it comes to kitchen door and drawer fronts!

ryder72

The advantage German kitchens have over UK ones is they are more flexible as often mentioned on here. If a customer needs a 375mm wide unit they will make them one but the volume UK producers won't and when you consider the modern manufacturing methods with computerised CNC machining there is no reason why they can't make a customer a "bespoke" sized unit. The UK volume manufacturers have been lazy in that respect.

The quality of German kitchens (often mentioned on here too) is no better whatsoever than UK ones. If German kitchen prices are on a par with the standard UK market then I don't see any reason why people shouldn't buy a German one.

However from my experience German ones cost a premium so as long as people realise they are paying a premium for the same quality of product then I'm fine with that.Its their choice afterall but I do get so tired with people posting how German kitchens are better quality than UK ones when the facts are they aren't. I think much of it is down to snob value "I've just had my new German kitchens installed and its fantastic".

People like to make a point of how its different from a UK one but as we know this is down to ignorance or the product but if it makes them happy they that has to be a good thing.

Hi leveller-

The premium on German kitchens is a bit confusing. I havent come across an English kitchen supplier that can offer the level of detail and flexibility that the Germans can. I work with an English kitchen supplier myself and they are well respected. They do some contemporary ranges but I wouldnt buy it for my own house and I dont recommend it to clients either. For starters they are more expensive plus they are missing the level of flexibility and detail. If you can show me an English supplier that can offer the same detail/flexibility and quality at the same price point , I will switch. I have said this for years and I think so has CK.

Now look at bog standard English kitchens lacking the detail and flexibility and compare them to the basic German suppliers (who still offer the flexibility) and you will find that the Germans are dearer by a maximum of 10-12%. Most retailers find that the reliability of supply, ease of ordering and doing business with the Germans compared to English suppliers as an additional benefit.

I really do think that it is a myth that German manufacturers are expensive. BTW, I am excluding the sheds from this conversation as I really do think their quality is pants.

leveller2911

Furts wrote: »

Kitchens are areas of drips, spills, condensation and humidity. My issue is with mdf doors in these circumstances. As a side issue I do not believe they are particularly robust, nor will they stand the abuse some consumers choose to inflict on them.

It all depends on what type of MDF used and the quality. You can get Moisture resistand MDF and waterproof MDF. Again its down to cost if you get good quality MRMDF produced buy compaines such as Medite its much denser than the cheaper (Green) rubbish you buy from the sheds and the likes of Jewsons etc. For a painted/sprayed door or carcase for that matter MDF can be the perfect choice in being very hard,taking paint well, far less movement from humidity and you get a good finish on it.

Vinyl wrapped mdf doors are a disaster area in kitchens because the vinyl can lift and peel. However matters are not helped by having mdf as the underlying product. I would never have an mdf door in a kitchen and I do not advise others to have them.

MDF is not the problem its the vinyl wrapping thats the problem.Not having a dig here Furts but you are basing your reasoning on a lack of knowledge about MDF as a whole.

There are countless defective window cill boards in the UK. These are mdf - all were claimed to be moisture resistant when installed, but the reality is the consumer has received defective dross.

Again this is nothing to do with the product itself and everything to do with the fact that they don't use moisture resistant MDF ,they use standard MDF, then they prime it with a waterbased primer which makes it "water resistant". If they used a decent MRMDF (moistrue resistant MDF) there wouldn't be any issues.

Don't throw the baby out with the dishwater Furts.:D


Getting off topic now but I think it needs to be clarified.

Furts

leveller2911 wrote: »

It all depends on what type of MDF used and the quality. You can get Moisture resistand MDF and waterproof MDF. Again its down to cost if you get good quality MRMDF produced buy compaines such as Medite its much denser than the cheaper (Green) rubbish you buy from the sheds and the likes of Jewsons etc. For a painted/sprayed door or carcase for that matter MDF can be the perfect choice in being very hard,taking paint well, far less movement from humidity and you get a good finish on it.


MDF is not the problem its the vinyl wrapping thats the problem.Not having a dig here Furts but you are basing your reasoning on a lack of knowledge about MDF as a whole.



Again this is nothing to do with the product itself and everything to do with the fact that they don't use moisture resistant MDF ,they use standard MDF, then they prime it with a waterbased primer which makes it "water resistant". If they used a decent MRMDF (moistrue resistant MDF) there wouldn't be any issues.

Don't throw the baby out with the dishwater Furts.:D


Getting off topic now but I think it needs to be clarified.

You are missing the point. Consumers have no idea about grades of mdf, nor do they know what has been used for window cill boards, nor kitchen door fronts and drawer fronts. Consequently the cheapest rubbish can be foisted on the consumer and once covered with paint, stain, laquer, vinyl wrap or whatever there is no way one will know. Hence buying any mdf product means taking a risk on its suitability and durability for a particular product.

As a further aside there are countless properties damaged by floods in recent years. Consumers and trades people rave about mdf architrave and skirting. All these have failed in the flooded properties.

It is bizarre when decent quality redwood architrave and skirting can be purchased for a fraction of what one pays for mdf. This product will be more durable and can also come preservative treated.

It is equally bizarre that timber kitchen door and drawer fronts are available at low cost yet consumers maintain a love affair with mdf.

leveller2911

ryder72 wrote: »

Hi leveller-

I havent come across an English kitchen supplier that can offer the level of detail and flexibility that the Germans can.

I agree that German companies are more flexible but I'm not so sure they offer that much more flexibility over say DIY online who have a good selection of carcase colours, panels etc etc. I do concede that UK manufacturers have taken their eyes off the ball and the first to become more flexible in the same way the German ones are would reap the benefits.

I work with an English kitchen supplier myself and they are well respected. They do some contemporary ranges but I wouldnt buy it for my own house and I dont recommend it to clients either. For starters they are more expensive plus they are missing the level of flexibility and detail.

Which UK company ?. This is one of the problems for me with Independants. Its all very cloak and dagger and they don't like to out information. If they are good then post their name so we can all see for ourselves but until this happens there will always be questions asked. I've run my small company for over 20yrs and I'm happy to give out any information on what products I use and the companies I deal with.

As an industry they will always struggle to convince us who actually have some knowledge about the industry when they never atcually advertise the costs of their products.

Lets take DIY as an example, you can go on their site and price up any sized unit with any door and the price is there for all to see, every single product is there with the cost so its easy for the consumer to see how much it costs.I don't see any German manufacturers doing the same and we always slate Howdens on here for their sales practices. Far too much smoke and mirrors in the industry and its no wonder why people get so confused with kitchens. I'm one of the biggest critics of the sheds and especially Howdens but there are decent UK companies who are competitive with decent quality that will last 20yrs +.

If you can show me an English supplier that can offer the same detail/flexibility and quality at the same price point , I will switch. I have said this for years and I think so has CK.

Can you post links to show me the specifications of a few German brands and in particular the carcases,worktops,drawer runners and hinges?. Maybe a couple of specs for cheaper German ranges and the same for medium and high that you consider to be worthy.

I really do think that it is a myth that German manufacturers are expensive. BTW, I am excluding the sheds from this conversation as I really do think their quality is pants

.


You say that but you and I both know that the cheapest kitchen from a shed can last 25yrs if looked after. My own kitchen is 23yrs old,standard shed bought kitchen (not by me btw) but its perfectly serviceable, I just haven't had time to replace it yet but I have finally booked it in my diary..:D

Most people replace their kitchens due to fashion rather than because its completely knackered, this is fact. A pair of hinges fails after 10yrs so they panic and replace the whole lot rather than carry out a bit of maintenance. Its no different than the car industry in that respect.

leveller2911

Furts wrote: »

You are missing the point. Consumers have no idea about grades of mdf, nor do they know what has been used for window cill boards, nor kitchen door fronts and drawer fronts. Consequently the cheapest rubbish can be foisted on the consumer and once covered with paint, stain, laquer, vinyl wrap or whatever there is no way one will know. Hence buying any mdf product means taking a risk on its suitability and durability for a particular product.

Sorry Furts but you are the one missing the point. You have totally discounted MDF as a product because you think that MDF is a rubbish product.Its not rubbish at all and as I said if the right product is used it can have advantages. You're criticism should be aimed at the people who make the window boards etc out of using inferior MDF. The public have no idea about the differeing quality of pine either but it all dpends on the species of pine and what its going to be used for.

Lets look at it this way.

You can use a whitewood (pine) window board from B&Q which will warp, twist,split and the knots bleed with resin for years to come , clearly not a good material to use for a window board.You could use a window board made of Douglas fir (pine) which will have no problems at all so its not the window board thats the issue its the quality of the pine used.

As a further aside there are countless properties damaged by floods in recent years. Consumers and trades people rave about mdf architrave and skirting. All these have failed in the flooded properties.

That argument doesn't stack up Furts because any pine skirting board/architrave will also fail if under water for any length of time.

Houses are not designed to be full of water and as such MDF skirtings/architraves are fine. They also have the advantage of being far more stable with heat than pine ones.Taking your logic one step further not a single home should have carpets or power sockets on the ground floor, they don't like water either.

It is bizarre when decent quality redwood architrave and skirting can be purchased for a fraction of what one pays for mdf. This product will be more durable and can also come preservative treated.

From my experience decent quality redwood is not easy to get and when you do its at a premium price.Redwood is far less stable than MDF thats a fact and any chippy will tell you when they go and buy pine skirting boards wider than 4" they are always cupped (bowed) across the width, this makes it harder to scribe internal corners and external mitres and a pain to use in general. My opinion is ,if its painted then MDF if its stained,varnished etc then Pine.

It is equally bizarre that timber kitchen door and drawer fronts are available at low cost yet consumers maintain a love affair with mdf.

If you are talking about the ones sold in B&Q etc they are the dregs imho and the thought of them sends a shiver down my spine .

They are the cheapest ,poor quality pine you can get.They often have the "pith" showing on the faces of the stiles. The pith is the very centre core of a tree and its consistancy is that of a piece of cork , being very soft and easily damaged with your finger nail and when it dries out it can literally fall out.They tend to be full of knots ,shakes and generally I think they should be used as fuel for the wood burner.


Getting way,way off topic now and guess we wil not agree on this one mate so I'm bowing out.