German kitchens

Furts

Kitchenbloke_Leeds wrote: »

Surfaced..... ? My apologies Furts. I should have paid much more attention to your opinion and perhaps accepted it as gospel. Brexit in fact has not as yet affected us in any way, turnover wise yet although I accept you will vehemently disaggree I believe it will not. People who see the logic in buying quality will still buy it. Those who have the the financial ability to purchase the real thing, rather than a mass produced copy will still want it and those who have aspiration will still aspire. Choice, quality and build quality ..... you cant beat it. All said, you nailed it in your last post. You are nothing more than a bigot and a wannabe bully. I guess its my way or the highway in your house.... I, like most of the posters here am no fool, I hold my belief, you hold yours. Its a forum not the Bible according to Furts. Live long and prosper......

I am happy with choice, I am happy if people buy German kitchens - it makes no difference to me how folks spend their money.

I gave you a name of manufacturer, a date of build and a lead in to inform all Forum users how knowledgable you are on kitchens. You had the opportunity to challenge my view with an informed debate. You have failed to do so.

Instead you have labelled me "a bigot and a wannabe bully". Perhaps people in Leeds wishing to buy a German kitchen should be aware of the unprofessional sales people that exist in that locality.

richardw

Interesting about Howdens https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/jul/16/howdens-kitchen-varying-quotations-customers-confused

Kitchenbloke_Leeds

Why has Kitchenbloke Leeds surfaced after all this time? Why has an old thread beeen revived? I am guessing Brexit has dented the enormous profits in German kitchens, sales forecasts look bleak, so time to try and drum up some naive punters to boost business.

No Furts, like your argument against German manufacturing standards, you are totally wrong. you attempted to insult me, personally and question my professional integrity.

Yes I am in business, I'm in business to make a living. Profit in business is not a dirty word. I design supply and install what people want. Quality and value for their money.

Even after having spent in excess of 40 years designing and retailing Kitchens, professional opinion and opinion based on personal experience is all I can offer this forum and offer my clients. Don't Diss me.... or my opinion.

My clients recommend me, my business and the service we offer, year on year. Yes we replace kitchens that we installed 18 & 20 years ago with something that is a little more up to date, better suited to their current needs or even where finances have improved and allow them to have what they wouldn't or couldn't afford years before. Yes we meet kitchens that look as good 20 years after they were purchased as the day they were put in, we do see poor quality kitchens that have been installed well and have been looked after and lasted but in the main the poorer quality stuff lasts 5 or 6 years before they start to show their failings. ( do you know I saw a 1960's Vauxhall Victor last week that looked like it had just been driven out of the showroom.... just saying.)

If you do your research properly you'll find out that even Blum, who without doubt are the most popular fittings manufacturer and in my opinion the best have a huge range of product. A hinge and a backplate may cost a pound but with a better specification it could be £10. Egger as a board manufacturer have not only different thicknesses of material but different densities of board, the density and content not only effects its ability to hold fittings but it affects it's ability to repel moisture.It's not the thickness of particle board that gives it strength its Density. Otherwise we'd all make cabinets from Weetabix, last time I measured my breakfast of choice it was 30mm thick. Quality Manufacturers like Rational, Keller, Siematic and Poggenpohl use the best materials.... It makes a difference, undeniably.

For you Sir, or indeed Madam, to suggest that I, in the main, use a German manufacturer for

"enormous profits" or "to try and drum up business from some naive punters ".

is ridiculous, crass and downright insulting. You are WRONG.

Its about a relationship and about trust. its also about excellent design. My clients become friends, they trust me to give them more than something that's just about fit for purpose.... And that is pretty much how most of the good quality independent kitchen showrooms and studio's work. I'm not here though, in any capacity, to drum up business, I have that, coming out of my ears. I'm here because I'm interested. I'm interested in other peoples opinion and I'm here to add mine, purely MY educated, professional, experienced opinion, to the melting pot.

It seems to though me Furts, that as somebody who has added in excess of 2700 comments to this forum but been "thanked" for adding your opinion 1500 times, an awful lot of people have your measure as much as I. In fact, the very fact that you have the time to add so much comment and diatribe to the forum suggests to me that you are sat at home all day surfing for googles opinion rather than being the expert on everything that you purport to be. Grow up & Grow old... and please stop insulting those who do not hold your opinion that cheapest is bestest. [sic}

Furts

Kitchenbloke_Leeds wrote: »

No Furts, like your argument against German manufacturing standards, you are totally wrong. you attempted to insult me, personally and question my professional integrity.

Yes I am in business, I'm in business to make a living. Profit in business is not a dirty word. I design supply and install what people want. Quality and value for their money.

Even after having spent in excess of 40 years designing and retailing Kitchens, professional opinion and opinion based on personal experience is all I can offer this forum and offer my clients. Don't Diss me.... or my opinion.

My clients recommend me, my business and the service we offer, year on year. Yes we replace kitchens that we installed 18 & 20 years ago with something that is a little more up to date, better suited to their current needs or even where finances have improved and allow them to have what they wouldn't or couldn't afford years before. Yes we meet kitchens that look as good 20 years after they were purchased as the day they were put in, we do see poor quality kitchens that have been installed well and have been looked after and lasted but in the main the poorer quality stuff lasts 5 or 6 years before they start to show their failings. ( do you know I saw a 1960's Vauxhall Victor last week that looked like it had just been driven out of the showroom.... just saying.)

If you do your research properly you'll find out that even Blum, who without doubt are the most popular fittings manufacturer and in my opinion the best have a huge range of product. A hinge and a backplate may cost a pound but with a better specification it could be £10. Egger as a board manufacturer have not only different thicknesses of material but different densities of board, the density and content not only effects its ability to hold fittings but it affects it's ability to repel moisture.It's not the thickness of particle board that gives it strength its Density. Otherwise we'd all make cabinets from Weetabix, last time I measured my breakfast of choice it was 30mm thick. Quality Manufacturers like Rational, Keller, Siematic and Poggenpohl use the best materials.... It makes a difference, undeniably.

For you Sir, or indeed Madam, to suggest that I, in the main, use a German manufacturer for is ridiculous, crass and downright insulting. You are WRONG.

Its about a relationship and about trust. its also about excellent design. My clients become friends, they trust me to give them more than something that's just about fit for purpose.... And that is pretty much how most of the good quality independent kitchen showrooms and studio's work. I'm not here though, in any capacity, to drum up business, I have that, coming out of my ears. I'm here because I'm interested. I'm interested in other peoples opinion and I'm here to add mine, purely MY educated, professional, experienced opinion, to the melting pot.

It seems to though me Furts, that as somebody who has added in excess of 2700 comments to this forum but been "thanked" for adding your opinion 1500 times, an awful lot of people have your measure as much as I. In fact, the very fact that you have the time to add so much comment and diatribe to the forum suggests to me that you are sat at home all day surfing for googles opinion rather than being the expert on everything that you purport to be. Grow up & Grow old... and please stop insulting those who do not hold your opinion that cheapest is bestest. [sic}

We will agree to disagree to an extent. I have yet to deal in a professional capacity with a good independent retailer of kitchens. Of course they must be out there and you say you are one of these.

leveller2911

Kitchenbloke_Leeds wrote: »

If you do your research properly you'll find out that even Blum, who without doubt are the most popular fittings manufacturer and in my opinion the best have a huge range of product. A hinge and a backplate may cost a pound but with a better specification it could be £10.

This interests me Kitchenbloke. Can you tell me what you class as a "better spec" Blum hinge and what type mounting plate and hinge?

Egger as a board manufacturer have not only different thicknesses of material but different densities of board, the density and content not only effects its ability to hold fittings but it affects it's ability to repel moisture.

How much is a sheet of the typical Egger used in German kitchens and what density is it?. I know the Egger I use is very dense and costs me around £40-00 for a 10 x 5 sheet which would be enough to make around 5 base units. Not bad for £40-00. For a kitchen of around 20 units it would take me no more than 3 days to make the units including edge-banding with 3mm ABS ,drilled for shelf studs etc and I'm not even geared up with a floor standing edge-bander.

It's not the thickness of particle board that gives it strength its Density.

I don't actually agree with as My own kitchen was the cheapest Howdens Contract 500 and fitted back in 1993 .The hinges are still fixed well, the shelf supports still as tight as the day it was fitted. Provided the feet are fixed in the correct position where they support the base and the side at the same time even the cheapest MFC can last for decades.


Quality Manufacturers like Rational, Keller, Siematic and Poggenpohl use the best materials.... It makes a difference, undeniably.

I don't rate Poggenpohl kitchens, I've seen far too many that had the budget Blum hinges fitted. Personally I think Grass are a far superior hinge to anything Blum can supply but I do like the Blum drawer runners. I have limited experience of German Kitchens but I have to say but They tend to be more flexible than most UK companies so if you need a unit 463mm wide they will make you one and UK companies need to adapt but as for the quality of their materials being "far superior" to UK companies this is just not the case.


A kitchen is just a row of boxes constructed from relatively cheap materials , a set of decent quality feet is less than £2-00 a set, hinges (say BLUM ones for arguments sake) ,with integrated soft close cost £5-00 a pair so even the very best German kitchen unit wouldn't cost more than about £50-00 to make.

Furts

leveller2911 wrote: »

A kitchen is just a row of boxes constructed from relatively cheap materials , a set of decent quality feet is less than £2-00 a set, hinges (say BLUM ones for arguments sake) ,with integrated soft close cost £5-00 a pair so even the very best German kitchen unit wouldn't cost more than about £50-00 to make.

To add to this B&Q make two ranges of units. A cheapo, and a better range called Cooke and Lewis. Whilst people may be happy to pay thousands on a kitchen, a unit is just a unit regardless of who makes it. There are subtle differences - the back panel, and whether a top panel is present for example. However, a German unit will not be a stratosphere away from a reasonable UK unit. This is a simple statement of fact.

Regardless, the bottom line is this. A corner base unit from B&Q is a big unit and costs what? Difficult to say, because who pays list price? IIRR last time I looked it was listed at £56.

leveller2911 costs out the production at £50 maximum for a reasonable unit. I maintain leveller2911 is spot on.

ryder72

I am not getting drawn into yet another pointless argument about superiority of various kitchens.

Yes it may be true that a 60cm carcase probably costs £40 to make with legs, hinges and a basic handle. It needs a door and a well made door will cost atleast that much again to produce, depending on the materials used.

The complete unit costs say £80. At the factory. It wont find its way to the customer on its own. VAT needs to be added. A retailer needs a markup etc.

While I can see where some of the arguments are coming from, I wonder if those making the argument ever visit a restaurant and wonder why the £20 steak isnt available for closer to £5 because the piece of meat they are eating costs £3 when bought in bulk and why the portion of chips is £3 when the potato used for making it costs 5p.

Something to think about.

Kitchenbloke_Leeds

I am not getting drawn into yet another pointless argument about superiority of various kitchens.

Yes it may be true that a 60cm carcase probably costs £40 to make with legs, hinges and a basic handle. It needs a door and a well made door will cost atleast that much again to produce, depending on the materials used.

The complete unit costs say £80. At the factory. It wont find its way to the customer on its own. VAT needs to be added. A retailer needs a markup etc.

While I can see where some of the arguments are coming from, I wonder if those making the argument ever visit a restaurant and wonder why the £20 steak isnt available for closer to £5 because the piece of meat they are eating costs £3 when bought in bulk and why the portion of chips is £3 when the potato used for making it costs 5p.

Something to think about.

100% on the point. Thank you Ryder.... pointless argument over....

leveller2911

Kitchenbloke_Leeds wrote: »

100% on the point. Thank you Ryder.... pointless argument over....

So you don't wish to reply to my valid question regarding your claim of "Superior quality Materials" used in German kitchens and in particular these Rolls Royce Blum hinges that cost £10 a pair?.

That's your prerogative but it smacks of marketing Bull sh*t to me. You can fool naive punters but you won't fool people who know the facts.

I fully appreciate that German manufacturers are more flexible but that's where the advantage stops imo. If that's the most important thing for a client then fine but from my experience it's lower down on the list.

Kitchenbloke_Leeds

That's your prerogative

thank goodness you said that, at last there's something that you have to say that not only do I agree with but something that makes sense and takes into consideration that the other party has a valid point of view. Thank you for that, I really do appreciate it........ it seems you do have an open mind after all.

Since we seem to be getting along better now we've got that out of the way I'd like to ask you some advice. I'm considering buying a new car. I'm really torn. Money isn't really an issue because of course as you and Furts or you as Furts would probably suggest, I'll just stick it on the price of some

naive punters

kitchen. I'm really torn though... I've been looking around at what's out there but I don't want to get ripped off. I've been looking at a Dacia Sandero, a VW Golf, a Mercedes S Class and a Bentley Bentayga..... The Dacia is about £6000 and the Bentley is £160,000. I can't really tell the difference. They all seem to have four wheels and an engine.
Do you think there a possibility that they are both the same car and its all smoke, mirrors, swanky showroom and dealer margin that I'd be paying Bentley for or am I missing something ?
I do want it to last and I'm used to buying the best that I can afford, I'm quite particular and appreciate detail, good design and even though I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering I don't have the time nor inclination to tinker with repairs. On top of all that, I absolutely don't want to drive what everybody else is driving.... what do you think ?

By the way do you know if Primark make cars ..... I once bought a tee shirt from there for £2, I left it in the bottom of the drawer for a couple or three years and do you know when I took it out of the bag it had kept it shape and colour perfectly,.... yet the Diesel tee shirt that I bought at the same time for £80 and only wore three times a week for three years looks so washed out.... disgraceful really don't you think.

Any way, give me your advice Leveller or Furts... because I'm really interested in your balanced and unbiased, open minded opinion, with emphasis on the singular. I'll stop by in a few months and read what you have to say.....