German kitchens

TheMacFella

Hi,
This seems like a decent place to ask this as it seems a few of you know what you are talking about.
We are looking at installing a new kitchen. Wren were clowns, Magnet confusing and very cagey (it seems to be like a game of poker with their sales staff. They don't seem to trust you) been to Howdens who were ok, but our heads have been turned by the handleless German kitchens. They look different with the thinner work tops, recessed so it can be handleless and all in all a nicer, different design. Now the two that we saw were form Pronorm and Nobilia. I see Nobilia seems to be a standard manufacturer in Germany, one post likened them to Howdens, but I don't see so much on Pronorm.
So, what's the feeling of these kitchens. We plan to have this in the house for the next 10 years at least so we need the carcass of the kitchen to be solid enough.
If German kitchens are so good, why are they so good? Better build quality?

Thanks in advance.
TMF.

lush_walrus

German kitchens in my experience are most certainly better. Stronger better built and longer lasting. My last 2 kitxhens are both German

ryder72

Hi TheMacFella -

Nobilia is what is called a white label kitchen made by a massive mass producer of German kitchens. Like all white label products its designed to be most things to most people, a reasonable quality product for reasonable money. That is if you manage to buy it for a reasonable price and this is where you need to be careful.

Anything German will offer far better quality, finishing, choice and detailing than Howdens. That bit isnt difficult.

Pronorm is a better product which will offer you more choice but will be more expensive. You should be be able to buy other German brands offering similar quality for less.

leveller2911

lush_walrus wrote: »

German kitchens in my experience are most certainly better. Stronger better built and longer lasting. My last 2 kitxhens are both German

Its an opinion but in reality German Kitchens are made from the same materials as the British kitchens.They all use MFC (Melamine Faced Chipboard) usually supplied by a company called Egger or similar. So the carcases are no better than any other kitchen . Just to add a 10'x5' sheet of egger board would roughly cost around £45-00 and you could get 4 units from one sheet so carcases are cheap as chips.

Then moving on to the drawer runners and hinges on German kitchens, these will be Blum hinges and drawer runners exactly the same as British kitchens from suppliers such as Howdens (Not a good company for business practices imo). There are very few companies who supply hinges,drawer runners such as Blum but Grass are imo better quality and there is also Hettich which are not as good. So ,again the facts are that German Kitchens are no better than most other kitchens.

The only advantage to German kitchens and it really is only 1 advantage and that is they are more flexible in that if you need a unit which is 375mm wide they can supply one whereas UK manufacturers tend to stick to standard sizes so 300,400,450,500,600,800 and 900. If people prefer the doors on German kitchens then my advice is go for it but don't be misguided in thinking its better quality and will last any longer.

A kitchen is just a row of chipboard boxes on plastic legs with a worktop screwed on the top.Its not a romantic,stylish image I grant you but thats exactly what they are.

I make Joinery including kitchens and have also fitted bog standard ones and I can tell you that bog standard Howdens 600 kitchen can last 25yrs or more if looked after. My grandparents kitchen ,which was fitted in 1957 was still going strong in 1995 so please don't belive all this marketing hype about German kitchens being superior quality and will last longer. I would also point out that most of the kitchens I replace are replaced not becuase they are falling apart but because people just want to update in the same way we do with TV's, cars and clothes.

Furts

leveller2911 wrote: »

Its an opinion but in reality German Kitchens are made from the same materials as the British kitchens.They all use MFC (Melamine Faced Chipboard) usually supplied by a company called Egger or similar. So the carcases are no better than any other kitchen . Just to add a 10'x5' sheet of egger board would roughly cost around £45-00 and you could get 4 units from one sheet so carcases are cheap as chips.

Then moving on to the drawer runners and hinges on German kitchens, these will be Blum hinges and drawer runners exactly the same as British kitchens from suppliers such as Howdens (Not a good company for business practices imo). There are very few companies who supply hinges,drawer runners such as Blum but Grass are imo better quality and there is also Hettich which are not as good. So ,again the facts are that German Kitchens are no better than most other kitchens.

The only advantage to German kitchens and it really is only 1 advantage and that is they are more flexible in that if you need a unit which is 375mm wide they can supply one whereas UK manufacturers tend to stick to standard sizes so 300,400,450,500,600,800 and 900. If people prefer the doors on German kitchens then my advice is go for it but don't be misguided in thinking its better quality and will last any longer.

A kitchen is just a row of chipboard boxes on plastic legs with a worktop screwed on the top.Its not a romantic,stylish image I grant you but thats exactly what they are.

I make Joinery including kitchens and have also fitted bog standard ones and I can tell you that bog standard Howdens 600 kitchen can last 25yrs or more if looked after. My grandparents kitchen ,which was fitted in 1957 was still going strong in 1995 so please don't belive all this marketing hype about German kitchens being superior quality and will last longer. I would also point out that most of the kitchens I replace are replaced not becuase they are falling apart but because people just want to update in the same way we do with TV's, cars and clothes.

Well said and my opinion too. Add to this countless UK consumers could not recognise quality even if it jumped out and punched them on the nose. Howdens and others recognise this, so kitchen construction today is often inferior to that of 30 years ago. Howdens and others also realise that the majority of consumers could not care less about how long their kitchen will last, hence the quality reflects this.

Independent retailers have jumped into the market selling the concept of "Buying into a Brand" with German kitchens which for most people are a waste of money. The real purpose of a German kitchen is to make money for the independent retailer.

leveller2911

Furts wrote: »

Well said and my opinion too. Add to this countless UK consumers could not recognise quality even if it jumped out and punched them on the nose. Howdens and others recognise this, so kitchen construction today is often inferior to that of 30 years ago. Howdens and others also realise that the majority of consumers could not care less about how long their kitchen will last, hence the quality reflects this.

Thats my point, a standard kitchen built around the late 50's early 60's would have been constructed from ply carcases with a layer of 3mm (1/8th") thick genuine Formica laminate which were also on the doors too. Now we get a .07mm thick layer of plastic film so there is no comparison. You would think thet with the advantages of modern production methods and materials todays kitchens would be better but they clearly aren't. They will however still last decades if looked after and that goes for the most basic standard shed bought kitchens too.

Independent retailers have jumped into the market selling the concept of "Buying into a Brand" with German kitchens which for most people are a waste of money. The real purpose of a German kitchen is to make money for the independent retailer.

They are just doing what businesses do which is create a niche in the market to make money in but as I said before we don't generally change a kitchen because its worn out we change because we want a change , same as we do with clothes and cars.

If you asked 100 people did they replace their car becuase it was worn out how many would say yes? very few. They may say it was starting to cost them a few £ in maintenance but not worn out.

Furts

leveller2911 wrote: »

Furts wrote: »

Thats my point, a standard kitchen built around the late 50's early 60's would have been constructed from ply carcases with a layer of 3mm (1/8th") thick genuine Formica laminate which were also on the doors too. Now we get a .07mm thick layer of plastic film so there is no comparison. You would think thet with the advantages of modern production methods and materials todays kitchens would be better but they clearly aren't. They will however still last decades if looked after and that goes for the most basic standard shed bought kitchens too.

They are just doing what businesses do which is create a niche in the market to make money in but as I said before we don't generally change a kitchen because its worn out we change because we want a change , same as we do with clothes and cars.

If you asked 100 people did they replace their car becuase it was worn out how many would say yes? very few. They may say it was starting to cost them a few £ in maintenance but not worn out.

I have replaced my kitchen. There was a mass produced, UK manufactured, contract kitchen fitted by the national house builder. Of course, national builders drive down the cost and quality of everything - a statement that is a fact of life.

But this kitchen had 18mm coloured carcass with different coloured lipping - something typical German manufacturers have only caught onto in recent years. All end panels were veneered timber, all back panels were 18mm panel, the doors were solid timber with 180 Blum hinges, the drawers were solid 18mm construction with superb Blum runners, the wall cabinets had built in adjustment, the worktop was 40mm laminate with a solid oak edge... and so on.

This kitchen was fitted in the 1980s and it, and the UK made appliances, were still in good shape 25 years later.

Today one could only buy a kitchen of this quality if it was bespoke made. At the time, it was just another run of the mill product churned out in mass quantities and at ridiculously low prices.

However, today people do not want kitchens that are this good - they are happy to settle for what is out there and then pay through the nose for it.

You are right - kitchens have gone backwards in terms of quality over recent decades.

Davesnave

Furts wrote: »

... we don't generally change a kitchen because its worn out we change because we want a change , same as we do with clothes and cars.

I've just ripped-out a British-made kitchen originally installed somewhere in 1988 and then re-installed here, with alterations, in the mid noughties. It was perfectly functional and probably would have gone on for another 20 years, but we hated the sight of it!

Ryanna2599

We're also just starting to look for a new kitchen for a kitchen extension that will be started in the Spring. From looking at designs online the white handless style appeals the most, however these only seem to be offered by companies like Nobilia (or at least they are the ones that appear most frequently on www searches). Can anyone recommend any good UK companies that offer similar products? Thanks

CKdesigner

Ryanna2599 wrote: »

We're also just starting to look for a new kitchen for a kitchen extension that will be started in the Spring. From looking at designs online the white handless style appeals the most, however these only seem to be offered by companies like Nobilia (or at least they are the ones that appear most frequently on www searches). Can anyone recommend any good UK companies that offer similar products? Thanks

Hi Ryanna2599

Look for an Independent Kitchen Specialist near you that does European kitchens, German or Italian, as there are many different makes that will do proper handleless kitchens which will also give you far more choice than the typical offering from UK manufacturers.

CK

lush_walrus

leveller2911 wrote: »

Its an opinion but in reality German Kitchens are made from the same materials as the British kitchens.They all use MFC (Melamine Faced Chipboard) usually supplied by a company called Egger or similar. So the carcases are no better than any other kitchen . Just to add a 10'x5' sheet of egger board would roughly cost around £45-00 and you could get 4 units from one sheet so carcases are cheap as chips.

Then moving on to the drawer runners and hinges on German kitchens, these will be Blum hinges and drawer runners exactly the same as British kitchens from suppliers such as Howdens (Not a good company for business practices imo). There are very few companies who supply hinges,drawer runners such as Blum but Grass are imo better quality and there is also Hettich which are not as good. So ,again the facts are that German Kitchens are no better than most other kitchens.

The only advantage to German kitchens and it really is only 1 advantage and that is they are more flexible in that if you need a unit which is 375mm wide they can supply one whereas UK manufacturers tend to stick to standard sizes so 300,400,450,500,600,800 and 900. If people prefer the doors on German kitchens then my advice is go for it but don't be misguided in thinking its better quality and will last any longer.

A kitchen is just a row of chipboard boxes on plastic legs with a worktop screwed on the top.Its not a romantic,stylish image I grant you but thats exactly what they are.

I make Joinery including kitchens and have also fitted bog standard ones and I can tell you that bog standard Howdens 600 kitchen can last 25yrs or more if looked after. My grandparents kitchen ,which was fitted in 1957 was still going strong in 1995 so please don't belive all this marketing hype about German kitchens being superior quality and will last longer. I would also point out that most of the kitchens I replace are replaced not becuase they are falling apart but because people just want to update in the same way we do with TV's, cars and clothes.

Yes of course if you are going for mass produced budget units that you are describing we all know the world is supplied identical units by China. I assume in asking the question the OP isn't looking for an off the shelf set of carcasses from B and Q and comparing it with an of the shelf from Gernany. Not all units are the quality you describe, quality German kitchens still have dovetail joints, solid wood drawers,wooden veneer (not melamine) or if you wish solid wood, screwed and glued cabinets pre formed when they arrive, I could go on. Yes you can ask a joiner to do the same here but then you need to find a good one amongst a sea of mediocre 1st fix carpenters who refer to themselves as joiners.