German kitchens

MisterBaxter

lush_walrus wrote: »

Yes of course if you are going for mass produced budget units that you are describing we all know the world is supplied identical units by China. I assume in asking the question the OP isn't looking for an off the shelf set of carcasses from B and Q and comparing it with an of the shelf from Gernany. Not all units are the quality you describe, quality German kitchens still have dovetail joints, solid wood drawers,wooden veneer (not melamine) or if you wish solid wood, screwed and glued cabinets pre formed when they arrive, I could go on. Yes you can ask a joiner to do the same here but then you need to find a good one amongst a sea of mediocre 1st fix carpenters who refer to themselves as joiners.

The OP mentioned two particular companies, looking at the specifications for both of these they don't seem vastly different to the specifications of the likes of Magnet, Howdens, Symphony, Moores etc. although they are very nice looking kitchens. The sort of quality you are talking about is going up another level and of course you start paying for that; I don't think that it is a case of 'they're German so they're better." There are ranges available to suit a price; when you start talking about dovetail joints, solid timber with veneers you are looking at something beyond the mass produced whereas the vast majority of people will be looking at mass produced carcasses of some description and then spending their money on the door/drawer, worktops and hardware to differentiate.

In fact I don't think that much of this stuff does come from China, some of the cheaper ranges may have imported hardware but the carcasses and generally still made in the UK.

On and off over the past 20+ years I have done work in and around social housing and spec build housing; I have seen contract range Symphony kitchens last 25 years when they have been looked after so the OP's requirement for a kitchen that lasts 10 years should be easy to meet from the majority of kitchens on the market.

TheMacFella

Hi Folks,
Thanks for all the replies.
Where we are just now Is that we have agreed a design with Howdens. It's good. Functional, ticks all the boxes but isn't quite as "wow" as I would like. We saw the German kitchens and for us they gave us the "wow" factor. Now we sat down with the Nobilia designer today. They want approx £3.5k more than the Howdens one, based on the same layout. To be honest I don't see the justification of a £3.5k difference in the Wow. Especially as you say that Nobilia are a run of the mill company. I smell a huge mark up here. They also are putting in Teka appliances, as opposed to Bosch, who I don't like the style of. Overall the experience today was pretty grim.
Now we have saw a Häcker kitchen. It looks the part. Very understated but classy. I am going to hand them my drawings today to see what they come up with.
We are to sit down with the Pronorm guy in a week to ten days.
If we can get a German style kitchen that's of decent quality (which looks to be guaranteed) for the same price as Howdens we will go there.

Reading what you are saying, it seems much of a muchness with regards to quality, so I guess then it comes down to taste. I think the fact the Germans offer so,etching different gives them the edge. The only negative I think is I feel they could date really quickly due to the style of them.
Thanks again folks.

TheMacFella

What I would say is that we are replacing a kitchen as it is worn out. 6 years old and from Howdens. Drawers peeling, cupboard doors peeling, hob broken, worktop bubbling at the join where water has gone in. It was installed when we bought the house fro the builder, but I think it was installed by a Cowboy.

Furts

TheMacFella wrote: »

Hi Folks,
Thanks for all the replies.
Where we are just now Is that we have agreed a design with Howdens. It's good. Functional, ticks all the boxes but isn't quite as "wow" as I would like. We saw the German kitchens and for us they gave us the "wow" factor. Now we sat down with the Nobilia designer today. They want approx £3.5k more than the Howdens one, based on the same layout. To be honest I don't see the justification of a £3.5k difference in the Wow. Especially as you say that Nobilia are a run of the mill company. I smell a huge mark up here. They also are putting in Teka appliances, as opposed to Bosch, who I don't like the style of. Overall the experience today was pretty grim.
Now we have saw a Häcker kitchen. It looks the part. Very understated but classy. I am going to hand them my drawings today to see what they come up with.
We are to sit down with the Pronorm guy in a week to ten days.
If we can get a German style kitchen that's of decent quality (which looks to be guaranteed) for the same price as Howdens we will go there.

Reading what you are saying, it seems much of a muchness with regards to quality, so I guess then it comes down to taste. I think the fact the Germans offer so,etching different gives them the edge. The only negative I think is I feel they could date really quickly due to the style of them.
Thanks again folks.

Search your sole and ask if you got a real price from Howdens. Or did you approach them as a retail "punter" who did not know their head from their elbow?

Hopefully you went in and negotiated a business like quote, fed them some BS and offered to open an account provided they were as tight as a ducks backside with their pricing.

Remember kitchen units and door fronts are as cheap as chips.

Also bear in mind UK manufacturers once did handleless as every day, mass market, cheap kitchen units. Regulations came in saying consider the disabled, consider those with mobility issues, consider those with poor eyesight, consider children...and so on. It made sense to fit kitchen unit cupboards and doors with a newly invented feature - this was called a "handle".

The German manufacturers eventually caught up with different colours on carcasses (see my previous post). I expect one day they will wake up and introduce "handles". Their concept is crazy - would you buy a house with no handles on any of your internal doors? Do you see commercial kitchens without handles? I do not think so.

When the German manufacturers feel they have taken UK consumers for a ride for long enough expect them to play catch up with the UK manufacturers. "Handles" will be introduced (albeit with slick marketing and added profit margins) immediately making everyone's German handleless kitchen as fashionable as a mullet hairstyle.

Good luck with your negotiating.

MisterBaxter

'Furts' is right about pricing; I bought a kitchen from Magnet a few years back now, didn't need fitting as I did that bit myself. I took my design in to them and asked them to start pricing, I already knew what the list price was as I got that from their catalogue. When they gave me the price (best part of £10k) I politely stood up, shook the salesmans hand and started to walk out at which point the talk of discounts started. They were 'willing' to discount various components at various rates ranging from 40% through to around 70% which almost immediately brought the price down to around £6k; at that point my wife looked at me and said "you told me it would only be £5k so that's how much I've saved", seeing the opportunity of a cash sale a 'cash sale price was approved' by the store manager at £4,700.

At £4,700 I think I paid a fair price, there is no way the kitchen was worth the starting price of £10k and I wonder just how many people ever pay the starting price. I know of others who have been through the exact same experience. Having seen some of the list prices for retail customers and having seen the prices paid for trade buyers, which still attract a profit, there will always be room for negotiation.

By way of an example I know that the supply and fit rate for a kitchen in social housing, including plumbing, electrics, decoration, floor coverings etc. is coming in at less than £4k. Admittedly the units are contract range for social housing which means they are fairly solid build quality but limited in the looks department. For that £4k everyone involved in the process is making a profit (economies of scale will have an effect but I doubt that it would halve the price).

TheMacFella

Cheers for the replies.
Did I get a real price from Howdens? Who knows. What I know is a friend of mine is the builder who holds the account and says that the price I got was a fair price. What else can I go on? So from that perspective I know I havent been shafted. Especially after the meeting today with the Nobilia supplier, where I think they were trying to.
Thanks for the history of handleless kitchens, but given the layout of our design I think the sleek lines of the handlesless one make the kitchen look nicer. After all it is a matter of taste, eh? After all, to add a dozen or so handles aint going to break the bank. So the handles issue is a matter of taste, not cost.

Cheers again folks.

deanos

OP did you use Magnet retail or magnet trade ?

If it was retail open up a trade account and get a quote, they are not fussy like Howdens and public can open accounts, take in your howdens drawing in for a quote

We got a Magnet kitchen and very happy with it, they were about 1,5k cheaper than Howdens for similar design

Furts

My local Magnet Trade and Howdens play off against each other. This is no secret - everybody knows it and it is taken as given with all quotes. So am opening question from Howdens is likely to be "What have Magnet Trade quoted you?" But one does not tell them the figure - they will have a very good idea simply by weighing up the person stood in front of them and their requirements.

Beware of your Howdens quote - what is the definition of "fair"? This could mean Howdens regularly quote your builder friend then he adds a 40% margin. He considers this fair but your quote is far from keen.

Howdens will not want to offer you prices that come anywhere near upsetting their regular trade customers unless you push for this. Be realistic here - if they offer retail customers real trade prices they will loose all their trade business and their business will fail.

Back to the fundamentals - do your homework, wise up and happy negotiating!

deanos

I couldn't be bothered to play the Howdens game, i got 2 quotes both different prices from 2 different joiners same branch , Magnet Trade gave me a good low price to start with no messing around , haggled some extra discount and some freebies

What I would say is that we are replacing a kitchen as it is worn out. 6 years old and from Howdens.

So why are you getting another from there !

Davesnave

I don't know how 'fair' the quote we had from Howdens was. Our builder/carpenter was newly set up in business in this area, so maybe he wouldn't have been offered the best deal, compared with regulars. Being a personal friend, he was intending to pass on all his discount to us.

Anyway, we went with the local manufacturing independent, whose price pretty much matched Howdens, like for like, and had the added benefit of cheaper quality appliances and a great deal on flooring/fitting.

In the end, it's best to weigh all the advantages/disadvantages and go where it makes best sense. We almost had a Hacker kitchen at one point, but the sales person at that independent changed to someone boorish and dismissive, so we walked.