German kitchens

CKdesigner

Furts wrote: »

Also bear in mind UK manufacturers once did handleless as every day, mass market, cheap kitchen units. Regulations came in saying consider the disabled, consider those with mobility issues, consider those with poor eyesight, consider children...and so on. It made sense to fit kitchen unit cupboards and doors with a newly invented feature - this was called a "handle".

The German manufacturers eventually caught up with different colours on carcasses (see my previous post). I expect one day they will wake up and introduce "handles". Their concept is crazy - would you buy a house with no handles on any of your internal doors? Do you see commercial kitchens without handles? I do not think so.

When the German manufacturers feel they have taken UK consumers for a ride for long enough expect them to play catch up with the UK manufacturers. "Handles" will be introduced (albeit with slick marketing and added profit margins) immediately making everyone's German handleless kitchen as fashionable as a mullet hairstyle.

Good luck with your negotiating.

Hi Furts

When you say that UK manufacturers used to make handleless kitchens before the health and safety brigade started interfering, this isn't quite right as I think you are referring to aluminium J Profile doors from the 70's, these were not handleless. The true handleless system (with the channel) I believe was invented in the 80's by Siematic in Germany, ever since, for this design of kitchen the Europeans have led the way and in fact it's the UK manufacturers that have tried to catch up, but in my opinion failed, with the likes of the gloss integrated J profile handle.

Also there is no issue with a well designed true handleless kitchen in terms of ergonomics, it is just as simple to use and simply looks much better without the interruption of handles. You say handleless kitchens are just a fashion phase, others would say they are actually a design icon that is absolutely here to stay.

As with everything in life you care to think of from watches, to pens to cars to designer clothing to cars and kitchens, there is always a need for good design, not just quality of product and often you have to pay more for design.

CK

ryder72

Thats correct, It was the Siematic S1 that started the handleless kitchen in the 80's and it has grown and grown.

30 years on, not one English manufacturer makes a handleless kitchen that is as well designed and executed as even the most basic German system.

If all a kitchen is meant to mean in a bunch of boxes on walls and floors with doors on them and an uninspired way to open doors and drawers ie the conventional handle then anything will do.

Some people like finer things in life and there is nothing wrong with that. Like CK says this will apply to absolutely everything in life and that doesnt make those who aspire to the finer things in life wrong.

Furts

CKdesigner wrote: »

Hi Furts

When you say that UK manufacturers used to make handleless kitchens before the health and safety brigade started interfering, this isn't quite right as I think you are referring to aluminium J Profile doors from the 70's, these were not handleless. The true handleless system (with the channel) I believe was invented in the 80's by Siematic in Germany, ever since, for this design of kitchen the Europeans have led the way and in fact it's the UK manufacturers that have tried to catch up, but in my opinion failed, with the likes of the gloss integrated J profile handle.

Also there is no issue with a well designed true handleless kitchen in terms of ergonomics, it is just as simple to use and simply looks much better without the interruption of handles. You say handleless kitchens are just a fashion phase, others would say they are actually a design icon that is absolutely here to stay.

As with everything in life you care to think of from watches, to pens to cars to designer clothing to cars and kitchens, there is always a need for good design, not just quality of product and often you have to pay more for design.

CK

The SAA J profile moved on from the original design and became integrated into the doors. It did not look like an add on. But we are being somewhat pedantic here - the doors did not have any visible, or projecting handles.

A wider question is why have a handleless kitchen? You say they are a "design icon". I say they are an alternative to having handles, but at a far greater cost to the consumer. I understand that it is in your interests to sing the praises of such systems. You have a vested commercial interest in doing so!

I am saying handleless is not inheritantly better than handles - it is simply a different means to opening a kitchen cabinet.

eastonian

leveller2911 wrote: »

Its an opinion but in reality German Kitchens are made from the same materials as the British kitchens.They all use MFC (Melamine Faced Chipboard) usually supplied by a company called Egger or similar. So the carcases are no better than any other kitchen . Just to add a 10'x5' sheet of egger board would roughly cost around £45-00 and you could get 4 units from one sheet so carcases are cheap as chips.

Then moving on to the drawer runners and hinges on German kitchens, these will be Blum hinges and drawer runners exactly the same as British kitchens from suppliers such as Howdens (Not a good company for business practices imo). There are very few companies who supply hinges,drawer runners such as Blum but Grass are imo better quality and there is also Hettich which are not as good. So ,again the facts are that German Kitchens are no better than most other kitchens.

The only advantage to German kitchens and it really is only 1 advantage and that is they are more flexible in that if you need a unit which is 375mm wide they can supply one whereas UK manufacturers tend to stick to standard sizes so 300,400,450,500,600,800 and 900. If people prefer the doors on German kitchens then my advice is go for it but don't be misguided in thinking its better quality and will last any longer.

I recommend them on here a lot but am only a customer I promise! Try out Supply Only Kitchen if you already had a design you're happy with, and will be arranging fitters yourself.

We got a 'true' handleless system made from Egger laminate with Blum hinges etc, designed exactly to our spec - they even cut door runs out of single sheets so the grain matched up, added oak veneer lip to to white carcasses etc. They do many cabinet sizes, appliances, sinks etc. as well. The service was great but more to the point it was a partially made-to-order, UK-built kitchen at an unbelievably good price. We compared with a local kitchen company designing & building (albeit in solid wood) but they came in at 3+ times the price.

They were the only UK company that could offer me true handleless (I HATE J-profile!), and they were a fraction of the prices I was offered by local independents or German kitchens.

ryder72 wrote: »

30 years on, not one English manufacturer makes a handleless kitchen that is as well designed and executed as even the most basic German system.

I've got one, the quality is at least as good as what I saw in the local Alno showroom, which I understand to be pretty basic, or the Nobilia stuff in Homebase.

CKdesigner

Furts wrote: »

The SAA J profile moved on from the original design and became integrated into the doors. It did not look like an add on. But we are being somewhat pedantic here - the doors did not have any visible, or projecting handles.

A wider question is why have a handleless kitchen? You say they are a "design icon". I say they are an alternative to having handles, but at a far greater cost to the consumer. I understand that it is in your interests to sing the praises of such systems. You have a vested commercial interest in doing so!

I am saying handleless is not inheritantly better than handles - it is simply a different means to opening a kitchen cabinet.

Hi Furts

Sure some handleless kitchens can be very expensive but its not the 'Handleless' part that really makes them expensive, its really the specification of the materials etc. Comparing like for like from one German manufacturer the cost difference of a handleless kitchen from a kitchen with handles is an increase of around 5 to 10%.

You say that we sing the praises of handleless design over kitchens with handles because we have a vested interest, again this isn't quite right. We are Fitted Furniture Specialists, and as such we do proper bespoke hand made kitchens all the way through to modern European ones and we have kitchen ranges from the lower end all the way to top of the market. The main thing is, we are all about good design and customer service, and our customers mostly recognise this and all of them want a new kitchen that is designed with a lot more thought than you would typically get from a national company.

CK

leveller2911

CKdesigner wrote: »

Sure some handleless kitchens can be very expensive but its not the 'Handleless' part that really makes them expensive, its really the specification of the materials etc. Comparing like for like from one German manufacturer the cost difference of a handleless kitchen from a kitchen with handles is an increase of around 5 to 10%.

I was reading a thread on MSE from 2013 regarding German kitchens and back then certain "Kitchen designers" (Not you btw) were saying "If you sat a German kicthen carcase along side an English manufacturers carcase there would be no comparison because the German one is far superior" . This was and still is absolute tosh. I have gone into details numerous times and carcase wise a decent UK mass producer such as DIY produce a superior quality carcase than most of the German manufacturers.

Look at their specifications and they use the same materials as UK makers do and their carcases edgebandings (quite important ) are marginally better than Howdens,B&Q etc but half the thickness if DIY's. They use the same hinges,runners as UK makers do . I noted Ryder mentioned Grass hinges,runners in his opinion being better than Blum which I tend to agree with but both will last 20yrs or more. The same goes for pullouts etc they will all have a decent lifespan. Which German manufacturers use 6mm thick back panels to their units? majority of them I would guess. Next thing we will hear how ther adjustable feet are so much better quality.

You say that we sing the praises of handleless design over kitchens with handles because we have a vested interest, again this isn't quite right.

I would be interested to know which German Brands you and Ryder promote/sell?. If they are that much better then tells us all so we can educate ourselves.so who would you say are mid to high spec German kitchen manufacturers?.

We are Fitted Furniture Specialists, and as such we do proper bespoke hand made kitchens all the way through to modern European ones and we have kitchen ranges from the lower end all the way to top of the market. The main thing is, we are all about good design and customer service, and our customers mostly recognise this and all of them want a new kitchen that is designed with a lot more thought than you would typically get from a national company.

CK

I don't disagree totally with the sentiment but Designers always seem to feel the need to promote themselves.

How many years apprenticeship/training do "kitchen designers" need to call themselves a "designer"?.

A few years ago I worked on a job where the kitchen was made and fitted by a well known UK kitchen company from the South West. It cost a huge amount of money and had a hand painted finish. The doors were constructed from Tulipwood with MDF panels ,Tulipwood face frames with traditional butt hinges. The quality of materials and workmanship was no better or worse than you would get from thousands of small UK Joinery workshops or bespoke kitchen manufacturers but the reason they can charge ridiculous prices is purely down to marketing and nothing to do with quality of product.

My point is its exactly the same within the mass national/international market if a person has a big enough pair of balls and can talk a good game they can sell ice to eskimos.

Furts

leveller2911 wrote: »

I was reading a thread on MSE from 2013 regarding German kitchens and back then certain "Kitchen designers" (Not you btw) were saying "If you sat a German kicthen carcase along side an English manufacturers carcase there would be no comparison because the German one is far superior" . This was and still is absolute tosh. I have gone into details numerous times and carcase wise a decent UK mass producer such as DIY produce a superior quality carcase than most of the German manufacturers.

Look at their specifications and they use the same materials as UK makers do and their carcases edgebandings (quite important ) are marginally better than Howdens,B&Q etc but half the thickness if DIY's. They use the same hinges,runners as UK makers do . I noted Ryder mentioned Grass hinges,runners in his opinion being better than Blum which I tend to agree with but both will last 20yrs or more. The same goes for pullouts etc they will all have a decent lifespan. Which German manufacturers use 6mm thick back panels to their units? majority of them I would guess. Next thing we will hear how ther adjustable feet are so much better quality.


So which German brands do you promote/sell?. I asked you this a while ago and you offered to tell me if I sent you a private message, which begs the question why wouldn't you be open about who you promote?.




I don't disagree totally with the sentiment but Designers always seem to feel the need to promote themselves.

How many years apprenticeship/training do "kitchen designers" need to call themselves a "designer"?.

My kitchen is a low cost UK made kitchen. All panels everywhere are fully lipped 18mm Egger board, which of course includes the back panels.

All hidden edges, everywhere, are lipped to offer protection against moisture - even on the undersides and backs of the base units.

The wall cupboard shelfs and back panels, and the decorative wall panelling under the breakfast bars, and behind the cooker hood, are all fully lipped 18mm Egger board as standard.

All carcasses are rock solid rigid units all fully screwed together - no cams and dodgy fixings are used anywhere.

Doors and drawer fronts are solid oak, as are the pelmets and cornice.

All hinges are 180 degrees, every door has two soft closers, pull out units, corner units, cutlery tray are all present. Glass doors are used for features, lights are fitted inside wall cupboards...and so on.

There is no mdf, no vinyl wrapping, no veneered doors and no flimsy worktops in my kitchen.

In total around 40 kitchen units.

All worktops, all splashbacks- which are much larger tahn the norm-, all shelfs, a wall panels and window cills are made from Silestone Chrome. Around 30 pieces are used.

I consider this an acceptable standard of kitchen construction. Not wonderful, but fit for purpose. My intuition is an independent kitchen retailer could not come within £10000+ on what I paid were they to offer an often inferior quality, German kitchen.

Equally I am happy for consumers to be taken for a ride everyday of the week when buying their designer kitchens. We live in a free world and I respect that is their conscious decision to do so.

CKdesigner

Hi Leveller2911

You are absolutely right that there is very little difference in terms of materials and build quality in a decent UK produced carcass to a German one. If I had to put my finger on the real difference then I would have to say finesse, the German made unit will have finesse about it that the UK produced units don't. I'll probably be slated for that statement, because it's difficult to actually put your finger on it, but it's kind of like the difference between a VW and an Audi, they share many components but the Audi has a finesse that a VW doesn't.

I'm more than happy to put in the public domain on this forum what furniture manufacturers we have accounts with and why but I'm not her to self promote, and I fear I could be accused of this. That is why I offered to give you this information in a private message if you sent me one first requesting this.

I kind of feel it's my job on here to give knowledgeable honest advice and champion independents over national companies, as ultimately if people support their independent local shops then these business owners help to support their local economies.

CK

TheMacFella

I got the price direct from Howdens. I got it when I sat with the designer as I am paying them direct and my mate separate.

deanos

TheMacFella wrote: »

I got the price direct from Howdens. I got it when I sat with the designer as I am paying them direct and my mate separate.

Is it through your own account though ?

When we had a kitchen in out last house it was through the joiners account, but we sat with the designer and paid direct as well, there could well have been a markup for the joiner on top