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If we vote for Brexit what happens
Comments
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Those were historical decisions made a very long time ago within our own country. Here, we are talking about the eradication of democracy and Britain's right to self-determination, imposed on us by an outside power, by stealth and without the agreement of our population. There's no comparison.
Before England came into being, the decisions to make Mercia and Wessex into one country were made by an external agent.
By comparison with the process by which England came to be the EU is extremely democratic.
Ultimately you need to think what constitutes an outside power; borders are just lines on the map after all. Someone living in London probably has more in common with someone living in New York than someone living in Stoke.0 -
Before England came into being, the decisions to make Mercia and Wessex into one country were made by an external agent.
By comparison with the process by which England came to be the EU is extremely democratic.
Ultimately you need to think what constitutes an outside power; borders are just lines on the map after all. Someone living in London probably has more in common with someone living in New York than someone living in Stoke.
one thinks that your worship of the EU is doing your grasp on reality no good at all
why not try re-reading a little economics to smooth your increasingly irrational and fevered brain0 -
Our elected representatives can choose from a list of 650 - that's 649 more than MEP's get to choose your President.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the potential president put up decided upon by elected representatives of democracies?
Clearly it would be terrible to live in a country, like North Korea, where the Head of State was in place merely because she was the daughter of the previous Head of State. That would not be democratic in the least.0 -
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the potential president put up decided upon by elected representatives of democracies?
Clearly it would be terrible to live in a country, like North Korea, where the Head of State was in place merely because she was the daughter of the previous Head of State. That would not be democratic in the least.
whilst you are gradually abandoning all logic and reason, in this case you, nevertheless, make a good point
the removal of an unelected monarch is within the capablity of the voters of the UK
whilst the removal of Juncker is not.0 -
Do try to keep up : my comment was in relation to
leadership : not power
You said "Yes we all long for those great days of Blair and Brown and Major Kinnock and Thatcher who grandly never considered the views of the scum voters and played upon the world stage, striving to save mankind."
Leaders of the Opposition do not play on a world stage.
But if you want to reinterpret your own words which are the entirety of your post, quoted in full, there is no more to say about it.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
whilst you are gradually abandoning all logic and reason, in this case you, nevertheless, make a good point
the removal of an unelected monarch is within the capablity of the voters of the UK
whilst the removal of Juncker is not.
Of course it isn't because the UK is not the whole of the EU. I'm sure there is a mechanism in the EU to remove Juncker. There is no mechanism for the people of Kent to remove the Prime Minister or the Chancellor.0 -
Of course it isn't because the UK is not the whole of the EU. I'm sure there is a mechanism in the EU to remove Juncker. There is no mechanism for the people of Kent to remove the Prime Minister or the Chancellor.
I 100% agree with you.
The essense of the situation is that the people of the EU do not feel engaged with the EU democratic process and feel they have no effective say. (well at least many in the UK).
I believe that in the UK many (not everyone) feels much closer to having an effective say in the democratic process.
At the end of the day if the people of Kent feel sufficiently disaffected with the UK democratic process they can campaign for independence (like Scotland).
To my mind, it is the pragmatic matters that count rather than great principles and if you personally feel engaged with the EU then that's probably right for you.0 -
A trade agreement would be OK if we benefit from it, but trade agreements have their negative points, especially with the EU. Plus we have the enforced political association which isn't working well for any EU country.
True. Trade agreements involve give and take. Whether we can say the EU has more negative points is difficult to say. Of course Brexit would give us the chance to find out!
Many (including the Brexit favouring economists) say we need not bother with trade agreements - just use the WTO rules. Others say we need to negotiate trade agreements as soon as possible. I find this difference of opinion on the Leave side disconcerting.Juncer is now making veiled threats if we vote to leave. Personally that's reason enough for me to want out.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/75222/leave-campaigners-seize-jean-claude-juncker-brexit
I agree threats are not helpful. But he may have a point. If you belonged to your local golf club but resigned and then came along next week and said can I use the club bar, what sort of reaction would you expect?
Rightly or wrongly a Brexit is going to tie up a lot of EU resources negotiating our Article 50 agreement so I can see that they might feel negative about it. It might be reflected in a hard nosed approach to a continuing trading relationship. Or they might just sort out the administrative aspects (eg residence and passports) and refuse to discuss anything else. I would hope common sense would prevail but I can see reasons why we might get a frosty response.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
Rightly or wrongly a Brexit is going to tie up a lot of EU resources negotiating our Article 50 agreement so I can see that they might feel negative about it. It might be reflected in a hard nosed approach to a continuing trading relationship. Or they might just sort out the administrative aspects (eg residence and passports) and refuse to discuss anything else. I would hope common sense would prevail but I can see reasons why we might get a frosty response.
Why would anyone expect the EU to set incentives encouraging further break up of the union?0 -
Ultimately you need to think what constitutes an outside power; borders are just lines on the map after all. Someone living in London probably has more in common with someone living in New York than someone living in Stoke.
Ah, yes, I see where you're coming from. I do exactly think about what 'constitutes an outside power', and for me borders are not 'just lines on the map after all'.
You see, I believe in nationhood, and value the achievements of each individual country in Europe, which brought us to democracy and probably the best standard of living there has ever been in any region of the world. What each European country achieved separately for itself, through a hard and often cruel process, along with all the individuality of its people and the works created by them, is something to be treasured, as far as I'm concerned.
Obviously, you don't agree. However, some people's desire to see the entire population of the world as a homogenous entity clearly makes them ignore the lessons of history. Humans always separate into groups and tribes, according to their interests. Communism and cultural marxism of the type advocated by Corbyn, McDonnel and Merkel (for example), will never work. In the end, people will fight for the interests of their tribes. I fear that Europe will learn this through very hard lessons. I am voting for Brexit because I would like a democratic Britain to be outside the undemocratic, dysfunctional construct that is the EU before it actually falls apart, not as it is doing so, which will make things very messy in Europe.
I am also against the vested interests (e.g. the desire to profit themselves through ever-decreasing payments to working people) of the hugely wealthy financial institutions who are pushing for 'ever-greater political union', and the fact that the EU bureaucrats and assorted unsavoury characters, such as Juncker, cannot be held to account, as can politicians voted in by the populations of European countries.
Those who forget their past, have no future…
Obviously, since you are in Australia, you are sufficiently far removed for all this not to affect you. A beautiful place…0
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