If we vote for Brexit what happens

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

CLAPTON wrote: »

are there many examples from history where mass movement of people hasn't caused wars and killings?

You assume people are incapable of leaving the barbarity and ignorance of the past behind, and instead prefer drawing artificial lines around patches of mud, and fighting to the death to defend them.

I prefer to think humanity will evolve beyond such absurdity.

A process that would be best served in the short term by reducing the barriers to movement and educating bigoted/xenophobic behaviours from the population as quickly as possible.

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

You assume people are incapable of leaving the barbarity and ignorance of the past behind, and instead prefer drawing artificial lines around patches of mud, and fighting to the death to defend them.

I prefer to think humanity will evolve past such absurdity.

You may well be correct that one day humanity may well evolve.

However, today do you support unrestricted freedom of movement ?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

CLAPTON wrote: »

You may well be correct that one day humanity may well evolve.

However, today do you support unrestricted freedom of movement ?

I support greater freedom of movement than currently exists as a transitional step towards unrestricted freedom of movement.

I accept getting there fully may take a very long time.

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

I support greater freedom of movement than currently exists as a transitional step towards unrestricted freedom of movement.

I accept getting there fully may take a very long time.

how much is about right?
it that amount the same all over the world?
when would you expect to see unrestricted freedom of movement?

do bear in mind that evolution is not about progress, it's about survival.

kabayiri

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

I support greater freedom of movement than currently exists as a transitional step towards unrestricted freedom of movement.

I accept getting there fully may take a very long time.

Scotland (via the SNP) are already worried by population shrinkage.

What's the point in free movement if you can't get people to go there?

You do know that a robot doesn't get a choice in where it's shipped dont you? Another feather in the robot apocalypse cap!

Sapphire

CLAPTON wrote: »

how much is about right?
it that amount the same all over the world?
when would you expect to see unrestricted freedom of movement?

do bear in mind that evolution is not about progress, it's about survival.

I agree with much of what you say. Allowing unrestricted migration is a fool's dream, in my view. Already in central London there are many more beggars (many of them Romanians) lying around in underpasses, something that had been largely cleared in the 1980s. It is very noticeable how this trend has increased over the last few years. This is during the day – it feels more dangerous and threatening at nighttime, especially if you are a woman and there aren't many people around. I don't know – perhaps people who advocate unrestricted migration want a return to the Rookeries and crime of the Victorian era, because that's what allowing unrestricted immigration would lead to, especially if it involved permitting unlimited numbers of people to come to Britain from Africa and the Middle East, where the standard of living (and respect for life) is quite different from that in northern Europe.

I'm not talking about not allowing in 'brain surgeons' and the like. They are welcome, provided they have a knowledge of our language and are prepared to live peacefully within our society, and provided their coming here is not conditional on them being allowed to settle permanently. What I do object to is people who 'want' to come here because they want British taxpayers to 'give them' an education, health services and housing, without them having paid anything in (and often without intending to pay in). Allowing this to happen would eventually destroy our infrastructure and economy, given how many people 'want' what we have without contributing anything (I know this is the case because I have talked to some such people on this topic).

Sure, global financiers and bankers (and others with a vested interest) want this to happen because it would allow them to profit from ever decreasing wages (this is already happening in this country), and from things like buy to let, but they won't have to live with the consequences of such policies and would be insulated from them. However, I believe unrestricted immigration would be a recipe for disaster that would destabilise countries still further – including in Europe, which has achieved relative stability since the Second World War.

gfplux

Sapphire wrote: »

I agree with much of what you say. Allowing unrestricted migration is a fool's dream, in my view. Already in central London there are many more beggars (many of them Romanians) lying around in underpasses, something that had been largely cleared in the 1980s. It is very noticeable how this trend has increased over the last few years. This is during the day – it feels more dangerous and threatening at nighttime, especially if you are a woman and there aren't many people around. I don't know – perhaps people who advocate unrestricted migration want a return to the Rookeries and crime of the Victorian era, because that's what allowing unrestricted immigration would lead to, especially if it involved permitting unlimited numbers of people to come to Britain from Africa and the Middle East, where the standard of living (and respect for life) is quite different from that in northern Europe.



I'm not talking about not allowing in 'brain surgeons' and the like. They are welcome, provided they have a knowledge of our language and are prepared to live peacefully within our society, and provided their coming here is not conditional on them being allowed to settle permanently. What I do object to is people who 'want' to come here because they want British taxpayers to 'give them' an education, health services and housing, without them having paid anything in (and often without intending to pay in). Allowing this to happen would eventually destroy our infrastructure and economy, given how many people 'want' what we have without contributing anything (I know this is the case because I have talked to some such people on this topic).

Sure, global financiers and bankers (and others with a vested interest) want this to happen because it would allow them to profit from ever decreasing wages (this is already happening in this country), and from things like buy to let, but they won't have to live with the consequences of such policies and would be insulated from them. However, I believe unrestricted immigration would be a recipe for disaster that would destabilise countries still further – including in Europe, which has achieved relative stability since the Second World War.

I assume you commute daily from Kingston upon Thames into central London and see these "Romanians" every day.
If this is the case you appear to be blaming the wrong people. Don't you realise that the British Government via the Mayor of London is responsible for the streets of London.
I am continually amazed that so many problems are blamed on the EU, that with Brexit will be solved, that are in fact the responsibility of the U.K. Government.
Yes you may note I don't live in the UK but I still know a UK elected Government is not an illusion, it actually exists and has to take some of the responsibility for things you don't like about the UK.
Our membership of the EU might have many consequences you and many others don't like but our Ministers and MP's can not be absolved of all blame.

Will those self same Ministers and MP's after a Brexit take on some super powers and act differently than they have in the past.
I suspect not. However you may know different.

CLAPTON

gfplux wrote: »

I assume you commute daily from Kingston upon Thames into central London and see these "Romanians" every day.
If this is the case you appear to be blaming the wrong people. Don't you realise that the British Government via the Mayor of London is responsible for the streets of London.
I am continually amazed that so many problems are blamed on the EU, that with Brexit will be solved, that are in fact the responsibility of the U.K. Government.
Yes you may note I don't live in the UK but I still know a UK elected Government is not an illusion, it actually exists and has to take some of the responsibility for things you don't like about the UK.
Our membership of the EU might have many consequences you and many others don't like but our Ministers and MP's can not be absolved of all blame.

Will those self same Ministers and MP's after a Brexit take on some super powers and act differently than they have in the past.
I suspect not. However you may know different.

Not all problems are due to the EU, but the inability of our courts to expel EU people whether beggars or murders does seem to be related to either EU or Human Rights legislation.

Sapphire

CLAPTON wrote: »

Not all problems are due to the EU, but the inability of our courts to expel EU people whether beggars or murders does seem to be related to either EU or Human Rights legislation.

Precisely! :T

For myself, I believe 'freedom of movement' from country to country is an absolutely crazy idea, and that there should be border controls, like there used to be. All potential entrants should be checked, and removed if they are unlikely to contribute anything to a country (and only to take from taxpayers), and certainly if they commit criminal acts.

Tromking

gfplux wrote: »

Our membership of the EU might have many consequences you and many others don't like but our Ministers and MP's can not be absolved of all blame.

Will those self same Ministers and MP's after a Brexit take on some super powers and act differently than they have in the past.
I suspect not. However you may know different.

A vote for Brexit is one way of getting our 'comfort zone' politicians working again on all the things that effect UK citizens.For example lets have the UK`s immigration policy decided by our own politicians rather than outsourcing it to the EU collective. The democracy deficit we suffer as a result of our EU membership has bred a lazy political class in my view. Lets get the !!!!ers working for us again!