If we vote for Brexit what happens

CKhalvashi

CLAPTON wrote: »

yes, some people find democracy deeply troubling

No problem with democracy, more a problem with a government and country that refuses to exercise common sense.

If someone voted leave in the belief that it would benefit them and the country in general, fine, that's fair play. If on the other hand people voted leave to either stick 2 fingers up to the government/big business, or because they believed everything the Leave campaign came out with (such as Turkey joining the EU, which isn't going to happen for a very long time yet) then I have a lot less sympathy.

I'd much prefer the option of building non-EU exports and then looking to leave the common market than plunging in at the deep end and facing issues straight away. Also, 2 years is IMO not long enough to get everything sorted out, and IMO a transition period afterwards will be essential to a seamless transition. Any transition period will probably take us 10 years into the future before a formal decision is made on how we're going to proceed, giving the UK the time to adjust to it.

Of course, the Tories have scuppered any chance of that happening with their UKIP-style policies being brought into play at the party conference.

wotsthat

mrginge wrote: »

So we go from moaning about there being no plan, to moaning when it turns out the government has a plan.

The plan is a secret so Johnny Foreigner over at the EU doesn't get to find out what our negotiating strategy is.

However, a Lebanese born Brazilian who works for a Japanese company and his close colleagues now have a better idea of what the plan is than you or I.

I'm enjoying the irony too much to moan about it.

mrginge

wotsthat wrote: »

The plan is a secret so Johnny Foreigner over at the EU doesn't get to find out what our negotiating strategy is.

As it should be.

However, a Lebanese born Brazilian who works for a Japanese company and his close colleagues now have a better idea of what the plan is than you or I.

As it should be.

I'm enjoying the irony too much to moan about it.

Is that the irony that it will be Lebanese, Brazilian or Japanese companies/people that we will be in a much better position to work with once we have left the EU?

CLAPTON

CKhalvashi wrote: »

No problem with democracy, more a problem with a government and country that refuses to exercise common sense.

so you don't like democracy or simply don't understand what it is

If someone voted leave in the belief that it would benefit them and the country in general, fine, that's fair play. If on the other hand people voted leave to either stick 2 fingers up to the government/big business,

why is frustration with MPs refusing to acknowledge the known wishes of the electorate, not a good reason for the electorate to vote as they please?

or because they believed everything the Leave campaign came out with (such as Turkey joining the EU, which isn't going to happen for a very long time yet) then I have a lot less sympathy.

seemed more a very racist 'remain' concern to me but maybe spread mor evenly

I'd much prefer the option of building non-EU exports and then looking to leave the common market than plunging in at the deep end and facing issues straight away. Also, 2 years is IMO not long enough to get everything sorted out, and IMO a transition period afterwards will be essential to a seamless transition. Any transition period will probably take us 10 years into the future before a formal decision is made on how we're going to proceed, giving the UK the time to adjust to it.

what you want may be very sensible or it may not be.
however it wasn't on offer, but illustrates that we should never have joined such a dysfunctional organisation in the first place.
Clearly no sane person should join an organisation that takes more than two years to leave and with such bad grace from the 27 EU: I hope all future countries thinking of joining, should take note.

Of course, the Tories have scuppered any chance of that happening with their UKIP-style policies being brought into play at the party conference.

which policies were these ?

BobQ

CLAPTON wrote: »

you have all the usual generousity of spirit associated with the left

Not really, my view is that many of the people of Sunderland were duped by the wealthy people running the Brexit campaign, much like so many others across the land. You know the argument: " what is your problem? Oh well that is due to the EU you know"

However, the CKhalvashi view is plausible.

I am not of the left so feel no obligation to conform to the behaviours you associate with them. Unless of course you think anyone to the left of Nigel Farage is " the left". I notice rugged thanked the post........

CLAPTON

BobQ wrote: »

Not really, my view is that many of the people of Sunderland were duped by the wealthy people running the Brexit campaign, much like so many others across the land. You know the argument: " what is your problem? Oh well that is due to the EU you know"

that's what democracy is about : people voting in ways that you consider inappropriate.

BobQ

mrginge wrote: »

So we go from moaning about there being no plan, to moaning when it turns out the government has a plan.

Who is moaning? The amusing thing is that Greg Clarke seems to be exploring a soft Brexit strategy which might not go down well with the Davis/Fox axis.

BobQ

CLAPTON wrote: »

that's what democracy is about : people voting in ways that you consider inappropriate.

Of course it is, but may be the CKhalvashi view has some validity. After all if you do not like what any Government does and you voted for it you are in no position to complain. But someone who voted against is entitled to say "told you so". That too is democracy!

BobQ

padington wrote: »

Our soft power is dwindling by the day. The rest of the world are shaking their head. Go to Canada and discuss Brexit. Go to Italy. Got to France. Got to Germany. Go to Poland.

The world knows what the plan is, simply become the scab of Europe and an even bigger tax haven or ...

... bite our nose to spite our face to exclude foreigners because our electorate were stupid enough to believe that the weakness of our tribe was caused by having too many hands on deck.

Selfish or idiotic, It's not an attractive look. It doesn't add to our soft power and it will lead to greater inequality around the world or a poorer UK with no European veto.

As CLAPTON might say that is democracy. But as you say, those of us who travel to many different countries do not think our decision is very sensible. In my experience they think we are at best mad and at worst racist/xenophobic. Of course it is our right to have stumbled into this position and we can celebrate it as a triumph for democracy rather that just a result of it.

Right now we have a democracy that allows 100% us to vote and a sizable minority of them that arrogantly believe the 48% should have no say in what happens next.

Meanwhile the world wonders what we are up to.

CKhalvashi

BobQ wrote: »

Not really, my view is that many of the people of Sunderland were duped by the wealthy people running the Brexit campaign, much like so many others across the land. You know the argument: " what is your problem? Oh well that is due to the EU you know"

People in Sunderland were allegedly openly saying that they would vote Leave, despite having being told by Nissan that investment may be cut.

Likewise, I analysed my business model before the referendum and was open that remaining is my best option, and IMO the best option for the country as a whole. There will be some losers in that view, there will be some winners, as with any view, that's the nature of life.

However, the CKhalvashi view is plausible.

As is any genuinely reasoned view, from someone that has looked deeply into an issue and given a response based on that, rather than saying 'oh, it'll be fine, no need to worry' and only that.

BobQ wrote: »

Of course it is, but may be the CKhalvashi view has some validity. After all if you do not like what any Government does and you voted for it you are in no position to complain. But someone who voted against is entitled to say "told you so". That too is democracy!

Can I just make it clear that I did vote, however I didn't vote Conservative (which is split in 2) or Labour (which is also split in 2), and as you've probably worked out, I didn't vote UKIP either.

I grew up in a Labour area, and now live in a Conservative area, and the more time goes on, the more certain I am that my views don't fit in perfectly with either, but more in the middle.

I believe that the EU needs some change, but I think that the UK should be sat there forcing that change through rather than leaving. This is where (being firm in my views of pro-EU) I believe UKIP and the Eurosceptic Tories have a place. The EU isn't perfect, however neither is the UK, neither is Germany, neither is Romania, but it's just part of life.

BobQ wrote: »

Right now we have a democracy that allows 100% us to vote and a sizable minority of them that arrogantly believe the 48% should have no say in what happens next.

That's where my big issue stands.

I'm not asking for a full Brexit to be postponed indefinitely, I am, however, asking for long enough to get myself out of the country and set up elsewhere if that is what will be the requirement, without fear of being sent packing once it's gone through.

The above, of course, doesn't require halting a process at all in reality, just ensuring that the rights I currently hold as an EU citizen (and have held for the majority of my life) are upheld until a certain date, where they can be exercised in a different way.

This should, of course, work the other way round in ensuring EU nationals in the UK are allowed to stay, even if arriving in the interim of the referendum and the UK formally exiting the EU.