Large slums developing in France

wotsthat

Sapphire wrote: »

I don't 'favour' any sort of 'prison camps for foreigners', so don't make false assumptions such as this. Last time I looked, this country did not have an 'empire', either. And what's this about 'concentration camps' and 'terrorist recruits'? Don't be silly.

I know we don't have an empire - it was irony.

Where exactly are these (not) prison camps going to be set up outside of Europe to house immigrants until they 'fess up to their country of origin?

The problem won't be resolved by putting people in camps - it's too big. Even people who think the solution to a problem is to move it from sight must know that.

It'll take money and lots of it. Yes, I think the EU should get off the pot and strengthen border controls but money also needs to be spent trying to make functioning economies of the places where these people come from.

Sapphire wrote: »

I do favour returning economic migrants from Africa and the Middle East from whence they came, or returning them to areas to which they belong, so they don't bring strife and poverty to Europe. If they did not want to return to their countries of origin, camps could be created for them to stay in outside Europe. The fact that you don't see the negatives of such people being allowed to roam freely throughout Europe (somehow I don't see the mobs attacking lorry drivers with machetes and knives in Calais as anything more than criminals) is your loss, not mine. Dream on (for now)…

Over simplistic hyperbole.

I think we deport far too few illegal immigrants and the numbers should be increased. So whilst we might favour this it's fanciful to believe it's a solution for dealing with the scale of the problem.

It certainly pays no attention to the root causes.

mwpt

Generali wrote: »

This is not trivial, far from it. Actually the simplest solution might simply be to spread 1-2-3,000,000 people across a continent containing a billion people after all.

I try to stay out of these debates but is there anyone who truly believes that taking in and homing everyone who arrives would result in a top end? The liberal view is to say that people do not want to move if they can help it but that's because the liberals who say this have not been near the real poverty elsewhere in the world.

I am not judging one way or another but I am saying very firmly that if you create extra incentive to migrate to Europe, far, far more will do so.

Garethgrew

Some slums in Asia are actually comfortable.

I can see the same things happening to these slums in France.

There are cheap brothels and you can buy lots of contraband for cash.

Generali

mwpt wrote: »

I try to stay out of these debates but is there anyone who truly believes that taking in and homing everyone who arrives would result in a top end? The liberal view is to say that people do not want to move if they can help it but that's because the liberals who say this have not been near the real poverty elsewhere in the world.

I am not judging one way or another but I am saying very firmly that if you create extra incentive to migrate to Europe, far, far more will do so.

I don't think that they need much more than Daesh to make them want to move. The thought of my daughter facing the choice of spending the rest of her life being serially raped and then killed once she became too ugly for anyone to condescend to rape her any longer would be plenty to get me moving.

The problem is, if not in Europe, where? Europe is where a minority but a substantial minority of refugees are arriving. What else would you do with them? The problem is, you live in a pretty populous area so a Manus Island-style solution is unlikely at best. What's the plan Stan?

mwpt

Generali wrote: »

I don't think that they need much more than Daesh to make them want to move. The thought of my daughter facing the choice of spending the rest of her life being serially raped and then killed once she became too ugly for anyone to condescend to rape her any longer would be plenty to get me moving.

The problem is, if not in Europe, where? Europe is where a minority but a substantial minority of refugees are arriving. What else would you do with them? The problem is, you live in a pretty populous area so a Manus Island-style solution is unlikely at best. What's the plan Stan?

That is why I stay out of the debates (usually). I do not know what the plan is, nor what it should be. I am an immigrant myself I guess (one day I aspire to being called an expat, but I don't know how to attain that prestige) since I am not originally from the UK, though have heritage here. I have moved around from place to place for economic and other reasons.

First, to declare my interest. An ideal world is virtually free energy, open borders and massive boosts to tech. My hope is that this would actually reduce conflict. But we're nowhere near that point unfortunately.

In the real world, I just don't see how the wealthy countries of the world could possibly support unlimited immigration. And if someone says it doesn't have to be unlimited, I just have to ask, by which morals do you decide where to draw the line?

It is not economically possible but on top of that you already see the rise of nationalist parties again. I think conflict and nationalism would actually increase.

But then, these are real people, humans just like you and I, and I have no idea what the solution is. The spread of wealth is just too slow.

Electrum

mwpt wrote: »

It is not economically possible but on top of that you already see the rise of nationalist parties again. I think conflict and nationalism would actually increase.

But then, these are real people, humans just like you and I, and I have no idea what the solution is. The spread of wealth is just too slow.

Yes real people no matter what nationality need somewhere to live.

If they have no funds or very little then they still need somewhere to live.

That applies to this country as well as any other.

One way or another people with very little money need to be housed, if property prices have a highest point they can ever get above what the average person can afford then we are at that point right now.

CLAPTON

mwpt wrote: »

That is why I stay out of the debates (usually). I do not know what the plan is, nor what it should be. I am an immigrant myself I guess (one day I aspire to being called an expat, but I don't know how to attain that prestige) since I am not originally from the UK, though have heritage here. I have moved around from place to place for economic and other reasons.

First, to declare my interest. An ideal world is virtually free energy, open borders and massive boosts to tech. My hope is that this would actually reduce conflict. But we're nowhere near that point unfortunately.

In the real world, I just don't see how the wealthy countries of the world could possibly support unlimited immigration. And if someone says it doesn't have to be unlimited, I just have to ask, by which morals do you decide where to draw the line?

It is not economically possible but on top of that you already see the rise of nationalist parties again. I think conflict and nationalism would actually increase.

But then, these are real people, humans just like you and I, and I have no idea what the solution is. The spread of wealth is just too slow.

It would seem to me, that mass of 'desperate' migration isn't caused by poverty but by war and oppression and bad government.

Before the conflicts in the middle east, although the people were poorer than Europe's, there was no mass migration.

One doesn't really need unlimited wealth or even a more even distribution but a 'pax Western European values' : unfortunately that isn't really possible at the moment as the west has lost confidence in its value system.
Africa has had 50 years of independence and is largely a basket case: Mandela - a failure as a human being, is regarded as a hero for fear of being called racist.

The middle east needs new country boundaries imposed by western force : the house of saud need destroying as a malignant force in the world.
However the west lacks the will and maybe the strength to do that.

In the UK the vast majority of immigration is economic and actively encouraged by all political parties (except UKIP).
Here its a political choice because we an island. Once scotland becomes independent we may see a new reality.

thequant

Generali wrote: »

A bit bloody arrogant.

Are you going to invade to create the camps or buy up a bit of land and hope that the locals don't notice that you don't have planning permission.

Interesting that nobody has noticed the actual problem: the poorest people in Europe are so mind-bogglingly rich compared to most people in Africa and central Asia that they are quite keen to get to enjoy a better life for their families.

These days travel is simple and so getting to a place where you can get you Europe is relatively simple.

Totally agree with this in that this is the reality of what's happening, The only way to dissuade them from coming is to make their lives as miserable as possible, camps like those in Calais are a good start.

If people are being attracted by a carrot, then remove the carrot

Generali

thequant wrote: »

Totally agree with this in that this is the reality of what's happening, The only way to dissuade them from coming is to make their lives as miserable as possible, camps like those in Calais are a good start.

If people are being attracted by a carrot, then remove the carrot

What exactly do you want to do to people to make it so that their daughters aren't sold into sexual slavery and any gay sons aren't thrown from roofs?

Force people to do something dreadful like live in Hull and it will be far better than the conditions they flee.

thequant

Generali wrote: »

What exactly do you want to do to people to make it so that their daughters aren't sold into sexual slavery and any gay sons aren't thrown from roofs?

It's the parents who are the first ones to volunteer to throw their gay sons off a roof, here's an interesting stat (will find the link if needed to back it up), did you know that 50% of "honour"killings in this country are against males, specifically gay muslim men?

I personally have come across, gay muslims who have had to steal an identity to survive in this country, running away from their families will not save them if they continue to live under their real identitiy. because it only takes a family friend 2 mins to check a goverment database to find them.

These people are no more safer over here when they bring their evil barbaric culture with them.