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Help preventing Bank Rip-off When Sending money Overseas ?

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  • grumbler
    grumbler Posts: 58,629 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 27 November 2015 at 2:29AM
    They only know in advance their own charges - no bank knows other bank's charges.
    They know perfectly how money is routed. It's not a rocket science to negotiate or simply find out the relevant charges of the intermediary banks which services they use.
  • BMN
    BMN Posts: 330 Forumite
    grumbler, jonesMUFCforever,

    Are you saying that a bank can ignore the law (Regulation 44 of the Payment Services Regulations 2009) and not notify its customer in advance of actual charges - instead just have some wording about possible unspecified charges in contravention of the law?

    If so, what is the law for ?
    And why don't you care that banks have an obligation to specify actual charges in advance, and are not doing so ?

    [posted before seeing grumbler's P.S. above -thanks for the P.S. grumbler]

    Please read Regulation 33. Regulation 44 is not applicable to your transaction.

    In my opinion, even if it was, I still don't believe that this would be a breach of regulation 44. Your bank (HSBC Bank plc) sent the amount you requested. Technically, the $25 fee wasn't levied on you but instead the payee.

    Although they may share the same branding, HSBC Bank plc and HSBC Bank USA, N.A. are different entities and are not really the same bank. So your bank would not have known about this charge beforehand.
  • agrinnall
    agrinnall Posts: 23,344 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Sounds like a classic case of barrack room lawyer to me.
  • I was thoroughly and completely wrong in quoting the Payment Services Regulations 2009, since, as BMN pointed out, these regulations do not currently apply to payments made outside the EU.
    Apologies. I was mixing up the current law with the new PSD2 law soon to be implemented in the UK (when payments made outside the EU in other currencies will be covered by the new law).

    Apologies.

    But this does not lessen the argument - UK banks still have to be fair, and not misleading. And these payments (where they advertise a £4 flat rate, but hide completely an additional $25 charge) are misleading and unfair.

    I could not care less about a single payment - but banks are making these unfair and misleading charges on every foreign (non-EU currency) payment, and to my mind effectively stealing money on every payment (see my Fed-Ex analogy above).

    The argument of jonesMUFCforever and colsten that who cares - let the banks take some of the payment - is just plain wrong - banks have to be fair and not misleading, and cannot arbitrarily take some of a payment, as they are doing.

    And the argument that when a bank sub-contracts an agency bank, it does not know that bank's fees is actually ludicrous - no bank (or other party) ever sub-contracts another party without agreeing a price for the contracted service.

    Again, this debate is clear.
    This debate has been conducted in other regimes (USA and EU), and this practice banned due to it being unfair and misleading.

    This has nothing to do with the Payment Services Regulations 2009 (my clear error above).
    But it still needs to be corrected, and prevented from occuring for future payments - can we allow UK banks to continue to be unfair and misleading ?
  • colsten
    colsten Posts: 17,597 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Seventh Anniversary Photogenic Name Dropper
    I mainly don't care because I shop around before I buy anything. It's so easy to avoid bank charges, and to get a better exchange rate, when sending money these days.
  • colsten - that is exactly the point !

    My bank made me believe that I would be paying only £4 for the payment.
    But I ended up paying £4 plus $25.

    I am not complaining about the cost - that is a commercial decision for my bank.

    I am complaining about the misleading action of my bank in not clearly notifying me that the charge was £4+$25, and not the advertised £4.
  • BMN
    BMN Posts: 330 Forumite
    colsten - that is exactly the point !

    My bank made me believe that I would be paying only £4 for the payment.
    But I ended up paying £4 plus $25.

    I am not complaining about the cost - that is a commercial decision for my bank.

    I am complaining about the misleading action of my bank in not clearly notifying me that the charge was £4+$25, and not the advertised £4.

    Your bank did only charge you £4 though.
  • Goldiegirl
    Goldiegirl Posts: 8,805 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Rampant Recycler Hung up my suit!
    But this does not lessen the argument - UK banks still have to be fair, and not misleading. And these payments (where they advertise a £4 flat rate, but hide completely an additional $25 charge) are misleading and unfair.


    Although HSBC Bank USA is a subsidiary of UK based HSBC Holdings plc (Holdings, not Bank), HSBC Bank USA is not a UK bank, it is an American bank.


    Furthermore, unless you have had $25 deducted from your personal bank account you have not been charged with $25 - it is the person that you sent the money to that has been charged.


    I'm sure there are rules and regulations abut fairness in the USA - maybe you need to go to HSBC Bank USA's website and check what they say about charges levied on their customers for foreign payments inwards. If the charge of $25 is not clear, then you'd need to complain to HSBC Bank USA...... although I'm not sure you'd get very far as you are not their customer. Maybe the recipient of the money could complain for you, if the fees are not clear on the HSBC Bank website, although I doubt if you'd get far with that either - who would pursue a complaint on behalf of a stranger?


    Maybe, for the sake of your blood pressure, it's time to let it go?
    Early retired - 18th December 2014
    If your dreams don't scare you, they're not big enough
  • GoldieGirl - This is the fundamental point.

    I paid my bank £4 to deliver $369 to a recipient in the USA.
    My bank only delivered $344 to the recipient !

    My bank's terms and conditions state that if I send money overseas, unspecified and mysterious parts of it may disappear.

    As I said, if I paid FedEx UK to deliver an 18-link gold necklace to the USA, and they only delivered a 17-link gold chain (having had their own agent take one of the chains), the police would be involved for theft.

    Is this any different ?
    I don't think so - let me know why if you do.
  • Goldiegirl
    Goldiegirl Posts: 8,805 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Rampant Recycler Hung up my suit!
    GoldieGirl - This is the fundamental point.

    I paid my bank £4 to deliver $369 to a recipient in the USA.
    My bank only delivered $344 to the recipient !

    My bank's terms and conditions state that if I send money overseas, unspecified and mysterious parts of it may disappear.

    As I said, if I paid FedEx UK to deliver an 18-link gold necklace to the USA, and they only delivered a 17-link gold chain (having had their own agent take one of the chains), the police would be involved for theft.

    Is this any different ?
    I don't think so - let me know why if you do.


    FedEx isn't a bank - it's like comparing an apple to an elephant - it's something completely different.


    HSBC UK have no control over what HSBC USA charge their customers


    I still think you need to look at the list of charges on HSBC Bank USA's website - if the charges to their customer aren't clear then you need to pursue the American Bank


    Or better still let it drop - there's far worse things going on in the world than to worry about $25 that was charged to a stranger in America
    Early retired - 18th December 2014
    If your dreams don't scare you, they're not big enough
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