3 PAYG seems cheaper than 1m contract - what am I not getting?

d123

diamonds wrote: »

For now, if 3 buy o2 then 900mhz backs up 800mhz.

If it happens any network merging is probably still years away, look back and see how long it took 2 1800Mhz networks to be merged when T-Mobile and Orange merged.

diamonds wrote: »

Ofcom really need to make a decision on o2, in my opinion that should have been before BT approval with EE.

If you honestly believe that you have very little understanding of the 2 deals.

The BT purchase of EE is a simple change of ownership and one that is probably going to be supported by the government as it will see BT buy the network and take it out of the control of 2 foreign state telephone companies.

Hutch/Three buying o2 sees significant competition issues as it sees a network being bought and then merged into another network meaning less competition and choice for consumers. Odds are, it will (rightly) be opposed by both UK and EU authorities. Hopefully the EU do act and take similar action as they did with the recent Danish network merger and prohibit it.

Gromitt wrote: »

Then maybe you can explain why, inside a building, I can regularly get service and data on a friends phone (on 3) whilst I can't on EE. Surely it should be the other way around?

It can only be a handset issue or possibly a fault with the EE portion of the mast. Have you logged the issue with EE? The odds of Three having better signal indoors if the system is working correctly and the handset isn't faulty are extremely small. As I said, every Three mast is shared with EE, so EE have all the same locations as Three with the addition of Orange masts not in MBNL, 1800Mhz 2G and a significantly larger number of 1800Mhz 4G and 2600Mhz 4G.

Both EE and Three have some 800Mhz for 4G but it is unlikely to influence coverage yet, and only noticeable with a very small selection of handsets.

diamonds

d123 wrote: »

If it happens any network merging is probably still years away, look back and see how long it took 2 1800Mhz networks to be merged when T-Mobile and Orange merged.




If you honestly believe that you have very little understanding of the 2 deals.

The BT purchase of EE is a simple change of ownership and one that is probably going to be supported by the government as it will see BT buy the network and take it out of the control of 2 foreign state telephone companies.

Hutch/Three buying o2 sees significant competition issues as it sees a network being bought and then merged into another network meaning less competition and choice for consumers. Odds are, it will (rightly) be opposed by both UK and EU authorities. Hopefully the EU do act and take similar action as they did with the recent Danish network merger and prohibit it.



It can only be a handset issue or possibly a fault with the EE portion of the mast. Have you logged the issue with EE? The odds of Three having better signal indoors if the system is working correctly and the handset isn't faulty are extremely small. As I said, every Three mast is shared with EE, so EE have all the same locations as Three with the addition of Orange masts not in MBNL, 1800Mhz 2G and a significantly larger number of 1800Mhz 4G and 2600Mhz 4G.

Both EE and Three have some 800Mhz for 4G but it is unlikely to influence coverage yet, and only noticeable with a very small selection of handsets.

BT looks set to monopolise 2600mhz at lower spectrum, Voda mid way and BT the only 35mhz.


No demand of offloading, like EE had too to 3 with 1800mhz.



3 bought 2 licences of 5mhz at 800, o2 2 x 10mhz of 800mhz that included coverage obligation. Ofcom will end up in court if it does not allow trading of o2/3 licences like it did EE, we can be rest assured 3 will prob have to drop the 2x800 5mhz licence and take the coverage obligation one for any merger.


Thus a 3G 2100mhz and 4G spectrum will be forced to be sold on, no doubt with some of o2's 2G 900mhz spectrum allocation. Equalling a new entry to the UK market, T-Mobile may even want that, its Flext plans bankrupt TM UK, but times have changed...EU mobile ops need to consolidate more sister companies due to the roaming abolishment. Extremely unusual a non EU company will buy a EU licence, but then again the pound is a strong currency so maybe Verizon or AT&T, China Mobile would be very interested.


This will bring competition to fairness has 3 never had a 2G network having sold Orange to fund 3G, no way can Ofcom refuse what it allowed EE to 3, it will end up in court.

Besides selling off 2/3/4G spectrum from o2/3 merger will give the new entrant equal footing 3 never had, a 2G basic and callinv and texting network, with a coverage obligation (5 billion between them all), it also forces 3's hand with the o2 800mhz licence overage obligation.

Interesting times ahead...

eagle

diamonds wrote: »

Interesting times ahead...

Indeed but hopefully for the better. I can't wait to see if they offer similar packages to what the (virtual operator) BT is currently offering - unlimited WiFi with data packages like 20GB for £20/25 a month.

I also believe the Hutchison-Three/O2 deal won't go ahead. The EU has already halted similar things across the continent, so they are unlikely to approve this deal.

Your comment above regarding China Mobile and other non-EU operators is interesting. I wonder if some foreign investor or over seas (non EU) network would eventually pick up O2. That would really put a spanner in the works here. The mobile market in the UK has been saturated for a while now so it will be interesting to see where we go from here.

diamonds

eagle wrote: »

Indeed but hopefully for the better. I can't wait to see if they offer similar packages to what the (virtual operator) BT is currently offering - unlimited WiFi with data packages like 20GB for £20/25 a month.

I also believe the Hutchison-Three/O2 deal won't go ahead. The EU has already halted similar things across the continent, so they are unlikely to approve this deal.

Your comment above regarding China Mobile and other non-EU operators is interesting. I wonder if some foreign investor or over seas (non EU) network would eventually pick up O2. That would really put a spanner in the works here. The mobile market in the UK has been saturated for a while now so it will be interesting to see where we go from here.

BT is no longer virtual, 4G I think was granted as the only reseller on a backdoor clause they were prob in talks of a buy out already. Virgin only got 4G for business plans.


Given the way Ofcom bent over backwards for EE, if 3 dont get fairness its head office will pay legal costs, HWL is a massive conglomerate.

It wont get to merge and cherry pick its spectrum, ie dropping the 'coverage obligation' for o2 800mhz 4G for a new entry to start from scratch with such obligation, 3 will be forced to take that 4G spectrum if a merger is approved.

A new entry to the UK from outside Europe would shake the market up, just like 3 did. The exchange rate of the pound can be most favourable, esp to countries with weaker rates, Singtel/Globe(Singtel majority) also need a EU mobile footprint, it already bought Cable & Wireless Optus in AU and reaped the rewards of a massive income in stronger exchange rates even if it paid a high purchase price, after 14 years it delisted from AU shares exchange this year.


Telefonica need to unload o2 UK, its higher value sold than itspoor run management revenue in the UK saturated climate, not as much as its debt which needs paid off and brought down asap.


I'm all for the merger and a new entry, the last Ofcom chief executive was a poor choice. This new woman has the telcos spinning

d123

diamonds wrote: »

BT looks set to monopolise 2600mhz at lower spectrum, Voda mid way and BT the only 35mhz.

No demand of offloading, like EE had too to 3 with 1800mhz.

3 bought 2 licences of 5mhz at 800, o2 2 x 10mhz of 800mhz that included coverage obligation. Ofcom will end up in court if it does not allow trading of o2/3 licences like it did EE, we can be rest assured 3 will prob have to drop the 2x800 5mhz licence and take the coverage obligation one for any merger.


Thus a 3G 2100mhz and 4G spectrum will be forced to be sold on, no doubt with some of o2's 2G 900mhz spectrum allocation. Equalling a new entry to the UK market, T-Mobile may even want that, its Flext plans bankrupt TM UK, but times have changed...EU mobile ops need to consolidate more sister companies due to the roaming abolishment. Extremely unusual a non EU company will buy a EU licence, but then again the pound is a strong currency so maybe Verizon or AT&T, China Mobile would be very interested.

This will bring competition to fairness has 3 never had a 2G network having sold Orange to fund 3G, no way can Ofcom refuse what it allowed EE to 3, it will end up in court.

Besides selling off 2/3/4G spectrum from o2/3 merger will give the new entrant equal footing 3 never had, a 2G basic and callinv and texting network, with a coverage obligation (5 billion between them all), it also forces 3's hand with the o2 800mhz licence overage obligation.

Interesting times ahead...

I'll be honest and say I struggle to understand your post in its entirety as it is written quite frenetically and haphazardly, but a few points.

Three only bought one allocation of 800Mhz, networks don't have licences per allocation of spectrum.

EE and Vodafone have 2600Mhz as bundled and sold by OFCOM, if o2 or Three had wanted it they would have needed to bid more in the auction.

T-Mobile doesn't exist anymore in the UK, and so isn't in any position to want anything you think it might, it's just a brand name currently owned by EE.

As there is a very good chance that the merger of o2 and Three will get either UK or EU approval I'm not sure what you are trying to say is happening there either.

diamonds

d123 wrote: »

I'll be honest and say I struggle to understand your post in its entirety as it is written quite frenetically and haphazardly, but a few points.

Three only bought one allocation of 800Mhz, networks don't have licences per allocation of spectrum.

EE and Vodafone have 2600Mhz as bundled and sold by OFCOM, if o2 or Three had wanted it they would have needed to bid more in the auction.

T-Mobile doesn't exist anymore in the UK, and so isn't in any position to want anything you think it might, it's just a brand name currently owned by EE.

As there is a very good chance that the merger of o2 and Three will get either UK or EU approval I'm not sure what you are trying to say is happening there either.

I'm sorry you think Ofcom press releases are such, you should take that up with them. I quote them on 4G spectrum auction allocations.

The issue was nothing to do with 3 or o2, it was EE and BT now having a lower 2600mhz monopoly with Ofcom approval with the merger not enforcing some offloading.

I didnt say TM UK, I said TM as in its owner, not EE but the BT incumbent in Germany Deutsche Telekom who own the T-Mobile brand, the offshoot of Deutsche Telekom mobile division T-elekom Mobile.


After avoiding TMUK failing by merging with Orange, Deutsche Telecom could take its EE windfall and buy any licences out to tender by a 3/o2 merger. A pound based licence equals great income for a Euro country head office, or any weaker currency for that matter.


The conditions a merger will approve will be forced sale of spectrum licences as per Ofcom requirement, thats what I am saying. With offloading of spectrum and a merger that created the biggest customer subscriber number network EE got approval. Adding o2 and 3 customer base is not near what EE took with a merger, thus anti-competition is on spectrum licence assets only.

d123

diamonds wrote: »

I'm sorry you think Ofcom press releases are such, you should take that up with them. I quote them on 4G spectrum auction allocations.

Here's the OFCOM page, I can't find anything that reads how you have posted, and you certainly haven't quoted any of it.

http://media.ofcom.org.uk/news/2013/winners-of-the-4g-mobile-auction/

The issue was nothing to do with 3 or o2, it was EE and BT now having a lower 2600mhz monopoly with Ofcom approval with the merger not enforcing some offloading.

Again, you are using strange terminology, what is a "lower 2600mhz monopoly"?

I didnt say TM UK, I said TM as in its owner, not EE but the BT incumbent in Germany Deutsche Telekom who own the T-Mobile brand, the offshoot of Deutsche Telekom mobile division T-elekom Mobile.


After avoiding TMUK failing by merging with Orange, Deutsche Telecom could take its EE windfall and buy any licences out to tender by a 3/o2 merger. A pound based licence equals great income for a Euro country head office, or any weaker currency for that matter.

Oh, I see, you were just making up a hypothesis with no basis in fact, DT have shown absolutely no inclination in getting involved in the UK market again.

The conditions a merger will approve will be forced sale of spectrum licences as per Ofcom requirement, thats what I am saying. With offloading of spectrum and a merger that created the biggest customer subscriber number network EE got approval. Adding o2 and 3 customer base is not near what EE took with a merger, thus anti-competition is on spectrum licence assets only.

No, any merger is looked at from all positions and anti-competition reviews will look at how it affects customers, with the EU that is actually one of the more important basic premises. Check the Danish merger that was refused, that was one of the points for rejection.

BT buying EE isn't a merger, so probably won't even need EU permission, it's a national issue for the national authorities to approve.

As things stand, the BT deal will probably be done quite soon with only minimal conditions (what happens with OpenReach seems more of a stumbling block than any spectrum arguments).

Three/o2, I think most in the industry will be more surprised if it gets approved in any form...

diamonds

d123 wrote: »

Here's the OFCOM page, I can't find anything that reads how you have posted, and you certainly haven't quoted any of it.

http://media.ofcom.org.uk/news/2013/winners-of-the-4g-mobile-auction/



Again, you are using strange terminology, what is a "lower 2600mhz monopoly"?




Oh, I see, you were just making up a hypothesis with no basis in fact, DT have shown absolutely no inclination in getting involved in the UK market again.



No, any merger is looked at from all positions and anti-competition reviews will look at how it affects customers, with the EU that is actually one of the more important basic premises. Check the Danish merger that was refused, that was one of the points for rejection.

BT buying EE isn't a merger, so probably won't even need EU permission, it's a national issue for the national authorities to approve.

As things stand, the BT deal will probably be done quite soon with only minimal conditions (what happens with OpenReach seems more of a stumbling block than any spectrum arguments).

Three/o2, I think most in the industry will be more surprised if it gets approved in any form...

Try post 13.


The spectrum mhz of 2600, post 13.


The chief exec of DT confirmed that in writing to yourself? Please do upload such. Any licences coming up in the EU will be wanted by EU telcos given roaming regulations of 2017.



I never said BT and EE was a merger, I said I am surprised 2600mhz spectrum was not changed as a requirement with EE and BT owning such spectrum and keeping ALL licences for it on approval of buy out. Given EE had to offload 1800mhz to merge, its very surprising.



The 3/o2 merger with spectrum allocations and selling of such will create a equal competitive 4th operator, something 3 has never had with 3/4G only. Spectrum licences in all 2/3/4G being revoked by Ofcom from 3 to another operator will create equal playing competition.

The 2 backhaul companies for all 4 networks on a merger may be enforced to allow access to the 'new' mobile company if not included ownership, thus cuts costs for all 4 in a heavy EU regulated market and thus limited profit making.

BT Openreach/Wholesale may also find itself enforced if not offhived from BT given it could be seen as a unfair advantage to supply backhaul connections to the 4's backhaul companies along with Virgin Media Business as BT group hold the majority of backhaul from base stations.

d123

diamonds wrote: »

Try post 13.


The spectrum mhz of 2600, post 13.

Post 13 has no links or quotes, so no idea. Are you trying to insinuate that the actual frequency in the 2600Mhz band makes a difference? It doesn't make any difference to OFCOM or the networks, if that is what you mean.

The chief exec of DT confirmed that in writing to yourself? Please do upload such. Any licences coming up in the EU will be wanted by EU telcos given roaming regulations of 2017.

It works the opposite, I don't have to prove an absence, you need to prove it has happened. Any links to show that DT have expressed an interest in starting or buying another UK network?

I can tell you, as someone who worked at T-Mobile when the merger happened is that the German board wanted rid of T-Mobile with an absolute vengeance, I doubt they would return even if given a new network for free.

The 3/o2 merger with spectrum allocations and selling of such will create a equal competitive 4th operator, something 3 has never had with 3/4G only. Spectrum licences in all 2/3/4G being revoked by Ofcom from 3 to another operator will create equal playing competition.

Can you count, diamonds?

1 EE
2 Vodafone
3 o2
4 Three

If the merger is allowed it becomes:

1 EE
2 Vodafone
3 o3

There won't be 4 networks, and that's why both Europe and the CMA is now against it, the experts are saying the market size needs 4 networks, not 3.

Just like as happened with the Danish 4 to 3 merger.

Scandinavian telecom operators Telenor ASA and TeliaSonera AB have abandoned plans to combine their Danish operations after failing to secure European antitrust approval, possibly signaling a tougher stance by the continent’s regulators toward consolidation in the fragmented telecommunications industry.

Norway’s Telenor and Sweden’s TeliaSonera wanted to merge their Danish businesses into a 50-50 joint venture with combined annual revenue of roughly nine billion Danish kroner ($1.36 billion).

But the two companies on Friday said talks with the European Commission, the bloc’s executive body, had broken down. “It is no longer possible to gain approval for the proposed transaction,” they said in a joint statement.

The deal’s collapse could indicate a tougher approach from European Union regulators toward mergers that reduce the number of mobile-phone operators in individual European countries from four to three.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/telenor-teliasonera-drop-danish-merger-plans-after-failing-to-win-eu-approval-1441963510

The CMA has said:

The £10.25bn Hutchison Whampoa (Three UK) deal to buy O2 from debt-laden Telefonica looks set to face a big hurdle after the Competition and Markets Authority preliminarily ruled that the “transaction threatens to significantly [affect] competition” in the United Kingdom’s mobile market

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/10/cma-calls-for-significant-competition-review-of-three-uk-and-o2-deal.html

diamonds

d123 wrote: »

Post 13 has no links or quotes, so no idea. Are you trying to insinuate that the actual frequency in the 2600Mhz band makes a difference? It doesn't make any difference to OFCOM or the networks, if that is what you mean.



It works the opposite, I don't have to prove an absence, you need to prove it has happened. Any links to show that DT have expressed an interest in starting or buying another UK network?

I can tell you, as someone who worked at T-Mobile when the merger happened is that the German board wanted rid of T-Mobile with an absolute vengeance, I doubt they would return even if given a new network for free.



Can you count, diamonds?

1 EE
2 Vodafone
3 o2
4 Three

If the merger is allowed it becomes:

1 EE
2 Vodafone
3 o3

There won't be 4 networks, and that's why both Europe and the CMA is now against it, the experts are saying the market size needs 4 networks, not 3.

Just like as happened with the Danish 4 to 3 merger.


http://www.wsj.com/articles/telenor-teliasonera-drop-danish-merger-plans-after-failing-to-win-eu-approval-1441963510

The CMA has said:


http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/10/cma-calls-for-significant-competition-review-of-three-uk-and-o2-deal.html

No it does not work that way, speculation is allowed, you are not speculating you are saying TM wont enter the UK again. You dont know that. Just because you worked there when it was falling to bits under poor management does not mean with roaming 2017 an billions of debt TM would not re-enter the UK. It made money by EE sell off versus nothing by going bankrupt prior merger.

Any merger would require removal of licences where a forth would entry would happen with them licences in the UK.

Denmark is a small market, of course 3 networks with 1 merger was never going to get approval, even by forcing spectrum licences.

They wanted to hand 40% of the backhaul company that the merger would create for the 3rd (not 4th after merger) new operator. That was not approved so they walked, not willing to give 50% ownership for a competitive market so it was never going to get approval. Also even with 50% 3 Denmark was at a disadvantage as the third and final licence holder with its backhaul.

UK merger would 25% ownership of the two backhauls by default into one.

Vodafone or Ofcom would not accept less. It also boosts Ofcoms 5 billion pound rural coverage at less cost against all 4 in declining revenues and profit.