MSE News: Parking campaigner fails to challenge 'excessive' charge at Supreme Court

Umkomaas

edgex wrote: »

& shouldnt these signs be at the entrance to the car park, where a driver is able to stop, read thoroughly, & make a decision as to whether to agree to the contract?

Not compulsory at the entrance to have the 'fine print' detail. The minimum requirement from the CoP Appendix B is a warning sign to state the car park is 'managed'.

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf

Example shown on page 28 of above link.

edgex

IamEmanresu wrote: »

You've got that back to front. It's the driver that makes the offer by parking. PE accepts it once the car has been in position for a period of time. Then the contract is formed i.e after grace.

so PE will need to prove that the driver had indeed parked, after having read & understood the 'contract' offered by the signs that are easily visible at the entrance to the site.

'Parked' being that the vehicle was stationary & occupying a specified space for a time greater than (?)

The in/out ANPR systems DO NOT prove that the vehicle was parked

edgex

Umkomaas wrote: »

Not compulsory at the entrance to have the 'fine print' detail. The minimum requirement from the CoP Appendix B is a warning sign to state the car park is 'managed'.

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf

Example shown on page 28 of above link.

the driver is being invited to enter into a contract between them & another entity

prior to entering into a contract, you are entitled to know what the contract is (ie. read it & understand it) & who the contract is with


therefore the contract has to be displayed/available to the driver prior to them doing anything which is taken to be them agreeing to the contract
eg. if driving past an ANPR camera is enough to enter into the contract, then the contract has to be displayed before that point, & there must be space for a driver to turn around if they choose not to enter into the contract

Cornucopia

edgex wrote: »

The in/out ANPR systems DO NOT prove that the vehicle was parked

Possibly, although I can see a Court deeming that you were parked, if you were there for 15 minutes or more. I know a few car parks where you could conceivably drive around for that long before giving up and going elsewhere, but not many.

Umkomaas

edgex wrote: »

the driver is being invited to enter into a contract between them & another entity

prior to entering into a contract, you are entitled to know what the contract is (ie. read it & understand it) & who the contract is with


therefore the contract has to be displayed/available to the driver prior to them doing anything which is taken to be them agreeing to the contract
eg. if driving past an ANPR camera is enough to enter into the contract, then the contract has to be displayed before that point, & there must be space for a driver to turn around if they choose not to enter into the contract

Which is where the newly introduced 'grace periods' come into play. As many entrance signs are roadside it would be chaos if every driver was expected to stop and read the detailed 'contract' before entry. This is what the CoP says.

13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

Marktheshark

Anyone with any brains will boycott a PE managed site now.
Those without are just going to have to be told "we told you not to go there"
In time the message will sink in, two, three hits at most and even the terminally stupid will get it.
You simply do not park your car on a PE managed site unless you want a "Fine" .
End of new advice.
Let the greedy retailers sought the mess out when their shops are empty.

Had we taken this stance in the first place....

nigelbb

edgex wrote: »

the driver is being invited to enter into a contract between them & another entity

prior to entering into a contract, you are entitled to know what the contract is (ie. read it & understand it) & who the contract is with


therefore the contract has to be displayed/available to the driver prior to them doing anything which is taken to be them agreeing to the contract
eg. if driving past an ANPR camera is enough to enter into the contract, then the contract has to be displayed before that point, & there must be space for a driver to turn around if they choose not to enter into the contract

Exactly! It's not possible to amend the contract with another lot of T&Cs on a separate sign after the contract has been accepted as per Thornton vs Shoe Lane Parking.

edgex

Umkomaas wrote: »

Which is where the newly introduced 'grace periods' come into play. As many entrance signs are roadside it would be chaos if every driver was expected to stop and read the detailed 'contract' before entry. This is what the CoP says.

This isnt about the CoP, as the CoP doesn't apply to those car parks 'managed' by firms not part of the BPA.

The basis that you are entitled to read & understand a contract prior to entering into it applies to all contracts, & will therefore apply to all car parks.

edgex

Cornucopia wrote: »

Possibly, although I can see a Court deeming that you were parked, if you were there for 15 minutes or more. I know a few car parks where you could conceivably drive around for that long before giving up and going elsewhere, but not many.

& as can be seen in many posts in this part of the forum, it is easily possible to 'visit' a car park twice in the same day, & for the 'system' used to not record your first exit & second entry*.



or do PE et al go through the data & delete those records?

salmosalaris

Surely there would have to be a clear contractual term that the driver agrees to begin the contract retrospectively, at the point of entering the car park, for the purpose of measuring the stay ?
If not the contractual period of parking is at the very least ambiguous and therefore under UTCCR should be read in favour of the consumer ?
If one were to accept their lordship's explanation that it is the passing of consideration in a promise to leave in x hours that makes the contract then that can only occur after reading and accepting the terms and without a clause as described above the contractual stay surely starts at that moment in time.
The same applies to the end of the stay , is it leaving the parking bay or the entire site which in the case of an MSA could easily be 15 minutes apart . PPC's choose to site their ANPR cameras at the end of the slip road rejoining the motorway therefore a motorist filling up with fuel, checking tyre pressures or buying anything from the garage shop must do so within the permitted parking time .


A grace period is a guess, a crude attempt to pay lip service to dealing with this clear and potential trap . The BPA require a minimum of 10 minutes on exit so any enforcement action in an ANPR situation that begins at 10 minutes over the ANPR timed stay without allowing a reasonable time in addition to study and agree the terms is consequently a breach of the CoP .